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168 grain or 175 grain Federal Match HPBT Ammo?

53K views 20 replies 12 participants last post by  Quick 
#1 ·
Hi all,

Back again:)

Hopefully (if its not raining to heavily) I'll be back on the range tomorrow doing a 900 yard or 1000 yard shoot (it changes each time)...

Here's my question - IF you wanted to have ONE type of ammo only for your 7.62/308 sniper rifle - would it be 168 grain Federal Match HPBT Ammo or the 175 grain version of the same?

After doing a lot of reading (and reading between the lines:) I get the impression that a lot of professionals use/prefer the 168gr for 0 to 600 yards and the 175 grain for 600 to 1000 yards (?)

Isn't the 168 grain load equally capable of handling both? The MAIN reason I'm asking is its taken MONTHS to get even a couple of cartons of the 168 grain here in Australia and the shop I buy through reckons they have NO IDEA how long it might be before I can get some of the 175 grain ammo...

SHOULD I hold out for the 175 grain or grab whatever I can of the 168 grain now while its availalbe?

I want to be able to do the 1000 yard shot - and I want good performance at all other ranges between 0 and 1000 as well...

I read in Major Plaster's book about the US sniper who took out two ******** 1050 yards away across the Euphrates (they were part of a ******* mortar team firing on US troops...)

When the troops got over to the other side they confirmed - 2 shots/2 kills - but using the US M118LR ammo (which is effectively the same as the 175 grain Federal Match Grade HPBT stuff...)

WOULD this guy (who was obviously a SUPERB shot anyway) have been able to achieve the same using the 168 grain instead?

Okay - I've asked SEVERAL questions there - sorry - this is something I've been running through in my head for a while now - any ideas on this would be GREAT...:)

Thanks in advance,

John (in Australia:)
 
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#3 ·
Is Federal Gold Metal Match 168 ammo capable of handling both 600 and 1,000 yard duty? The simple answer to your question is NO.

Unless you run the 168 smks to 2,700 fps+ (or shoot at high altitude) it will not stay supersonic beyond about 800 - 900 yards or so. The Fed. GMM ammo runs the 168s and the 175s at or about the same speed 2600-2650 fps (depending upon your rifle and barrel length of course). That speed will generally get teh 175s to 1,000 and still be supersonic; it will not do the same for the 168s - different BC.

That is why most people that do not want to work up 2 different loads, usually run the 175s or the 155 Lapua Scenars (at 2,900 fps).

JeffVN
 
#4 ·
Thanks for that Hlabrake:)

THIS is what I need to know:)

NEXT QUESTION: IF the 175 grain rounds perform 'better' then by HOW MUCH? Has anyone out there made any sort of comparisons between the 168 and 175 rounds at long range? (i.e. 600 out to 1000 yards specifically...)

At the end of the day I was told that the only reason EITHER round was available here in Oz was because the Army had ordered some for their snipers - and apparently THEY BOUGHT *ALL* OF THE 175 AND *MOST* OF THE 168 (there were still a few boxes of the 168 left and I got a couple of those..

I guess if the Australian Army bought *all* of the 175s that should probably tell me something too:) BUT - then again - IF it turns out I can't get any 175s I need to know if the 168s WILL do the job too - before I put together the rest of the 1000 round stockpile I have in mind... (this is AUSTRALIA - I have seen guys order a particular type of ammo or gun and WAIT FOR A YEAR TO GET IT - NOT unusual out here in the land of the ever diminishing number of guns (of ANY sort) in civilian hands and a whole new generation growing up as a bunch of anti-gun pansies...:-(

Bottom line: IF you want something and its actually AVAILABLE at the time you have to GRAB as much as you can then and there or wait FOREVER for another shipment to come to Oz from the US...

John.
 
#7 ·
Yes Andy - you're right:)

Problem is: I've already got a 9mm reloading kit (Dillon 550 4 stage) and was in the process of getting additional tool head/dies/etc. (for swapping in/out) to do my .357 reloading - TIME POOR is how I would describe myself at the moment - and although I *know* the MOST successful F Class shooters here also (the REALLY competitive ones) are RELOADING my problem is I don't have time for it...

HAVING SAID THAT - IF these buggers keep me waiting forever to get the 175 grain ammo I want I might be hassling all of you good sniper central chaps for your best 175 SMK HPBT bullet loadout data and invest in a really basic single stage reloading setup for 7.62 (because I only need to reload about 20 to 30 rounds on a weekly basis anyway...

(Obviously I'll keep my old Federal brass from the match grade stuff I've been shooting and use that:)

Mmmmh - 0430hrs - time for another whiskey before hitting the hay - the RAIN might settle down in which case I'll get a shoot at about 1300hrs - if the rain continues to BUCKET DOWN that will be another week without getting my little baby out for a shoot:-(((

(Think my Remington 700p TWS 7.62 *deserves* to be given a name actually - she means more to me than a LOT of people do - a RIFLE you can *trust* and you can *count* on - NOT many people you can say the same for:)

John.
 
#8 ·
Damn - you can tell its my last few days off before heading back to work:-((((

Andy/all - please DO give me your best *equivalent* to the M118LR/175 grain FMG HPBT round in a reload yourself option...

IF that is all I can do I will grab a one stage/simple/basic press, keep all my top quality Federal brass, score some good powder/primers/the SMK projectiles in 175 grain flavour and take it from there...:) (measurements/etc would also be much appreciated :)

John.
 
#9 ·
John,
Since the factory velocities for all the match ammo run around 2500-2600 f/s the 168g will not work reliably for you at 1000y.
If you can reload the 168 SMK to run 2700 or more you will be able to be supersonic at 1000y. Obviously higher would be better, depending on accuracy of the load.
I don't have trouble running my 175 loads in that neighborhood so you should be able to do the same with the 168's easily.
I wouldn't be too concerend with the Federal brass. In my experience it has been somewhat soft and only goes 2-3 loadings before the primer pocket expands enough to make the case unserviceable. I have switched to Lapua cases and have used Remington and Winchester cases also with good results. I'm also evaluating the Nosler brass. Haven't shot enough of it to have an opinion on it yet, but the outlook is good.
You might consider the 155 Lapua bullets. I have gotten 2905 f/s with extreme spread of 12 f/s and standard deviation of 4. I used 44.8g RL15, Winchester primer, and Federal match brass.
My recipe for the 175 SMK is 45g Varget, Winchester primer, and Lapua brass.
By the way, I shoot both bullets molly coated or naked with these loads.
Hope this helps.
 
#10 ·
Stormrider said:
John,
Since the factory velocities for all the match ammo run around 2500-2600 f/s the 168g will not work reliably for you at 1000y.
If you can reload the 168 SMK to run 2700 or more you will be able to be supersonic at 1000y. Obviously higher would be better, depending on accuracy of the load.
I don't have trouble running my 175 loads in that neighborhood so you should be able to do the same with the 168's easily.
I wouldn't be too concerend with the Federal brass. In my experience it has been somewhat soft and only goes 2-3 loadings before the primer pocket expands enough to make the case unserviceable. I have switched to Lapua cases and have used Remington and Winchester cases also with good results. I'm also evaluating the Nosler brass. Haven't shot enough of it to have an opinion on it yet, but the outlook is good.
You might consider the 155 Lapua bullets. I have gotten 2905 f/s with extreme spread of 12 f/s and standard deviation of 4. I used 44.8g RL15, Winchester primer, and Federal match brass.
My recipe for the 175 SMK is 45g Varget, Winchester primer, and Lapua brass.
By the way, I shoot both bullets molly coated or naked with these loads.
Hope this helps.
I've heard a lot of people say that they have the problem with the federal brass primer pockets losening up. I've got Federal brass on the bench now thats about to go in for its 10th to 12th reloading. Most of that stuff I'm just doing GMM copies. 168grain SMK puking out at about 2645fps. I've been able to reload those things over and over. But when I do long range shooting Lapua brass is the only way to go.

I'll also give a +1 on the 178 SMK and the Lapua 155 Scenar's.

Also don't discount the 178 Hornday A-Max thats a great bullet as well!

Oh and as far as loads go you've been handed a winner in the above post. My GMM copy load is a 168SMK with 45.1 grains of Varget. I half neck size the brass and seat the bullets to 2.3135" OAL (measured to the Ogive) I believe it is. (Its getting late maybe I'm mis-remembering that) but its always easy to grab a round of GMM and measure it.
 
#11 ·
joliver said:
Here's my question - IF you wanted to have ONE type of ammo only for your 7.62/308 sniper rifle - would it be 168 grain Federal Match HPBT Ammo or the 175 grain version of the same?
If you are restricted to purchased ammo, then the 175 is the more vesitile round, allowing another 125 yards of supersonic flight compared to the 168.

If, on the other hand, you are allowed to consider rolling yourown ammo, Then you should consider a round with the 155 Lapua Scenar (or 155 Berger VLD). 47.8 gr of varget in winchester cases gives a MV >2950 fps from a 24" tube, and this gives you less than 300" drop at 1000 yards compared to almost 400" drop for the 175 at 2650 fps. The Lapua 155 Scenar (and Berger 155 VLD) have a big enough ballistic coefficient that they maintain the 200 fps advantage all the way down range. Some shoot these loads to 1200-1300 yards.
 
#12 ·
I think I'll have to print this thread off and keep it:) (GREAT quality information every time I post a question here!:)

Mitch - you've DEFINITELY got me interested here...

I've got a 26" tube so (theoretically) I'll get a few more fps still...

(I'm using a Remington 700p TWS - set up with Nightforce NFX 5.5-22x56mm scope, harris bipod and rear monopod).

At the range I have to shoot the 150gr Palma match bullets the club uses (or roll my own equivalent - up to a maximum weight of 150gr to still be considered as 'Standard F Class' - although that is not the B all and End all for me - the range is not too far from home so it means easy access to somewhere that I can keep my long range shooting skills up to scratch on a regular basis - my REAL interest is in being well set up with a GOOD long range round that I can take bush and do whatever I want with - whether it be settling on one round (factory) that I purchase (e.g. the 175 we're talking about) OR rolling my own - something the same as yous I'm guessing would be IDEAL for my rifle too??

John.
 
#13 ·
So, now that I have your intrest, drop over to "Practical Riflery" and read up on the guys over there who have converged on really good loads for the 308 with 155gr bullets. There are at least 5 excellent and long threads, so don't be afraid to read deep into their recent history.
 
#14 ·
Hi all;

I like 168gr for the close work, however when the ranges get way out there I prefer the 190gr. However Sierra doesn't make that 190gr matchking anymore. I wish they did. I did some hasty calculations where the 168 gr at 2600 from federal, and handloaded 190's at ~2550fps and the 190's shot 5.4MOA flatter at 1000 meters, plus it was still supersonic (barely). The 175's were still 2.3MOA lower than the 190's at the exact same velocity. The conditions I set were 800ft, 80 degrees F, 70% realtive humidity. That's the local elevation, and average humidity and temperature.

Sorry if i'm threadjacking.

Branden
 
#15 ·
Easy answer for a non reloader is 175 every day of the week and twice on Sunday! The 175 outperforms the 168 to 1000+ and this is especially true in factory loaded ammo loaded to leave the tube at 2600fps. If you can only have one bullet go with the 175.
 
#16 ·
New opinions?

hey guys, I'm gonna give new life to this thread, and see if there are any new opinions. I was browsing the forums and felt this would be the best place to post this question. So I am fixing to start reloading for my Rem 700 SPS Tactical (20 inch barrel, 1:12 twist). Based on the short barrel, and twist rate, should I go with the 168, or 175 Sierra MK, or the 155 Lapua Scenar's? What would be best out to 1000 yards? What is the best overall multi-purpose bullet?
 
#17 ·
Re: New opinions?

Tetra84 said:
hey guys, I'm gonna give new life to this thread, and see if there are any new opinions. I was browsing the forums and felt this would be the best place to post this question. So I am fixing to start reloading for my Rem 700 SPS Tactical (20 inch barrel, 1:12 twist). Based on the short barrel, and twist rate, should I go with the 168, or 175 Sierra MK, or the 155 Lapua Scenar's? What would be best out to 1000 yards? What is the best overall multi-purpose bullet?
A lot depends on what your rifle likes. Lots of people like the 155 but I have never tried them. i prefer the 168 but again the only way to know for sure is to shoot them yourself in your rifle.
 
#18 ·
hmm, ok. In that case I won't make a 500 bullet order. I was leaning at first to the 168s then I started researching the 175s. I guess I'll start out with the 168's and just order 100.
 
#19 ·
What ranges do you want to shoot over???

The 168 has issues with the transition through the transonic zone, the profile of the bullet itself has something to do with that. If you want good performance out to 1000m. Use 175gr Match ammo. Its built and tailor-made for long range work. You may have to load a tad hot or make sure your scope has enough elevation. It will need it. Mine ran out at about 901m. So my rifle (R700 SPS Tactical) is really a 800m rifle until I get a new barrel (helps with the powder burn) and also new scope (need more elevation).
 
#20 ·
Hey Quick,

I found a shooting club near me that shoots at Camp Butner NC(National Guard Site), and they shoot between 600-1000 yards. I'm probably going to join the club, although I haven't been to any of their meets or practices yet, first one is this weekend. Anyway, I guess I'd be shooting between those distances. - So you think I shoud start with the 175's?

Thanks
 
#21 ·
Mate, run 175gr and dont look back. you will have issues with the 168 at the longer ranges. The transonic zone starts around 1330fps and that is a period of instability for a bullet. the 175gr is designed for punching through that and hitting the target with accuracy. Theres a good reason why the M118 (168gr) became M118LR (175gr).
 
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