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Rifle Choices

26K views 45 replies 8 participants last post by  ddd oo7 
#1 ·
Guys I love this site. Just joined about a week ago and I have been reading for 2-3 hours each night. I found a lot of the information I have been looking for, but like most things that just opened additional questions. I have been shooting since I was 5. My dad was in the military and then in law enforcement for a number of years so we were always shooting something. I grew up on a 300+ acre farm so I have killed about every small animal VA has to offer with a BB gun at one point or another. My mother used to quarantine me and the cat in the winter when It snowed to keep us from blasting all the birds that came around the house. More recently I find myself watching TV shows or movies where they are marveling at the "snipers" shooting ability where in a lot of cases it could make the same shot with the rifle I deer hunt with, and I only shoot that gun a few times a year. I am at the point now where I have the time and money to really find out how good I can shoot. The rifle I spoke about earlier is a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle I bought nearly 15 years ago. It has a new trigger and I did some work on the stock to float the barrel and correct some fitment issues from the factory. I can shoot at 3 shot group where each shot touches or nearly so at 100 yards with factory ammo. I want to see how far I can take this so I need a rifle that is better than me, and with the light barrel on the Remington I will need a new rifle. Should I buy the Ruger Precision Rifle, Howa HCR, or should I go with the Howa Barreled action and aftermarket chassis, etc. Caliber would be 6.5MM Creedmoor. Also are the after market chassis like ones from MDT plug and play or do they require a gun smith. I am leaning toward building my own. Also I will be hand loading ammo for whatever gun I use.

Hack
 
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#2 ·
Personally, the Remington 700 is still a great action to build on. If it were me, pick up another one of those with a factory heavy barrel (Remington 700 SPS Tactical, SPS Tactical AAC-SD, 5R). Buy a Manners or McMillan stock over a chassis and have it bedded, unless you get the 5R which already comes with a H-S stock (still have it bedded). While its out to have the stock bedded, have the gunsmith blueprint your action too. Timney 510 Trigger and good optics mounted in Badger rings on a Badger rail. That rifle would outshoot you for quite some time, and when you are ready to upgrade again than you can have the factory barrel and recoil lug replaced.
 
#3 ·
If you can consistently shoot where 3 shots touch at 100 then you are a 1/2 moa or better shooter. If you want to grow from there you need a rifle that will shoot better than 1/2 moa. Nothing listed above will be a consistent 1/4 moa rifle. If you want to squeeze out another 1/4 moa or more out of your ability then you need a rifle that will shoot such and you will need some instruction and several hundred if not thousand rounds to get there.

My desert tech with ts customs barrel will shoot 1/8 moa many times and 1/4 moa consistently. I have many 100 yard groups in the teens and 300 yards under 1/2". A factory rifle will not do that.

Any quality custom build by a reputable smith will hold 1/4 moa with tuned hand loads. However...if you get a 1/4 moa factory rifle...you just got lucky. Now...a lot of people will tell you that they "got lucky" and their factory rifle is 1/4"...however one "lucky" group does not make a 1/4" rifle. When I say 1/4"...I mean 1/4" more often than not.

You say you really want to learn...then you need equipment that is better than you are or else you are just spinning your wheels. In my opinion...either step up to a full custom...or be satisfied as a 1/2 moa shooter.
 
#4 ·
I have many 100 yard groups in the teens and 300 yards under 1/2". A factory rifle will not do that.
All arguments aside, I beg to differ with that last statement. My Remington 700 still has factory barrel and action, not even blueprinted, and my best group thus far is 0.326" (measured outside edge to outside edge minus .308) at 300 yds using 168 gr. FGMM. I can consistently get ~0.5" at 300 yds with the same rifle and ammunition or ~0.75" using 175 gr. FGMM or 168 gr. Hornady Match BTHP.

That is why I think so highly of the Remington 700 action and its suitability to build upon for those of us that can't afford the DTA yet ;)
 
#10 ·
Remingtons are great actions to build upon. Lots of aftermarket, lots of choices. My Remington is a 1 MOA shooter, just the way it is. I've learned a lot with it over the last few years, but I'm at the point of needing it rebarreed, only because it won't shoot sub 1/2" groups on a regular basis. Remington also is very limited on it cartridge choices and the twist rates. They're not setup with long range target shooting in mind.

The Ruger RPR has been a huge hit in the entry level rifle market. Many people already have AR's and the ergo's on the RPR being very similar make it an easy transition. My issue with it has been the cost vs the quality. Ruger did fix many of the cheap stupid little things on the Gen 2's like the bolt shroud and safety. But your still paying $1300 for a rifle that most of the time needs a new barrel to be sub 1/2 MOA. That puts you up to near $2,000 total cost, which is getting you into custom build price ranges.

We've been recommending the Howa barreled actions because it offers the best bang for your buck and consitaint 1/2 MOA guns. Not 1/2-1 MOA depending on the luck of the draw. The first thing we tell every new shooter to upgrade on any factory rifle is the stock. With the Howa barreled action, your not paying for a cheap plastic molded POS.

A Remington cost you about $630 for a SPS Varmint or SPS Tactical. Then you add in a B&C stock, your now at $900ish. The Howa's are $430ish, add the same B&C stock and your only at $730ish. That $200 savings can go to a better scope, a Bi-pod or ammo.
 
#12 ·
Thing is...he is already shooting 1/2 to slightly sub 1/2 moa with his current rifle....so a 1/2 moa howa is not gaining him anything except another caliber and another rifle. If you want a rifle that you KNOW will shoot 1/4 moa...then there is no other option besides a custom. Otherwise you are just throwing money at a maybe.

This is almost the same place I was in a few years ago. I had a rem 700 varmint with factory barreled action that would shoot about 1/2 moa. However I hit a plateau and couldn't shoot any better. I had outgrown the capabilities of the rifle. One can simply say that I am just a 1/2 moa shooter...or they can step up...buy a rifle that is capable of better and continue to grow in their shooting abilities. When I pull the trigger on my rifle I am confident as to where the bullet is going. I know that if the group is not under 1/4 moa at 100 that it is my fault...not the rifle's fault. I was a 1/2 MOA shooter when I bought this rifle...I have grown and learned many things from shooting a rifle that is better than 1/2 moa. I have learned more about how to lay behind the rifle, how to pull the trigger, how to work the bipod, how to prep and load brass, and other things that really don't matter if you are happy with 1/2 moa.
 
#17 ·
ddd oo7:

I remember when you first got the TacOps Tac 51 .260...would you say the Desert Tech outshoots the TacOps? If so, how close is the comparison solely on performance (not convenience via conversions)? And what was the price difference? I want the Desert Tech for the functionality of it, but still personally believe that a custom rifle such as the TacOps is the better shooter...am I wrong? I understand the comparison is kind of apples to oranges since the TacOps is a .260 and you are running .308 on the Desert Tech, so best educated guess maybe?

Have you considered getting a .260 conversion for the Desert Tech (if that is an option) to truly compare them?
 
#20 ·
The Tac Ops and the Desert Tech are neck and neck as far as accuracy goes. I don't believe I am giving up much in the accuracy department...and I like the ergos of the DT better. I might consider a 6.5 creed barrel at some point...but I will not purchase a 260 barrel for the DT. As far as price goes...the Tac Ops was more...but they can be had in the price range of the DT...just not in the set up I wanted. I hand picked every part for the Tac Ops and then mailed them to Mike. The biggest issue I have with buying another Tac Ops (or shooting this one to the point it needs rebarreled) is the wait to have it built.

The other downfall of a full custom as opposed to a DT is the scope. I have a TT which is a great scope...but I can't put a TT on every caliber that I might want over the next 10 years. I can however scrape together enough to buy a TT once...and then just buy barrels when I want different calibers.
 
#18 ·
If you want a rifle that will shoot 1/4 moa or better then I would start with a custom action, benchmark barrel, manners or mcmillan stock, a quality trigger (timney or jewel depending on application), and then the best scope you can afford. The biggest variable in building a precision rifle is the smith. You need a tried and tested smith that is PROVEN over and over to build rifles that shoot. I have one barrel from TS customs and another rifle that he is about to finish up...and many friends that have rifles from him. I would have no trouble sending him more work.

The other option...as stated above is to buy a Desert Tech chassis and a TS customs barrel from Primal Rights. I have a tac ops as well...which is a great rifle...but the Desert Tech is the one that I shoot the most. The DT option is the faster of the two and will run about the same price (maybe slightly more) as a top tier full custom. Either will suffice for your needs.
 
#19 ·
If you want a rifle that will shoot 1/4 moa or better then I would start with a custom action, benchmark barrel, manners or mcmillan stock, a quality trigger (timney or jewel depending on application), and then the best scope you can afford. The biggest variable in building a precision rifle is the smith. You need a tried and tested smith that is PROVEN over and over to build rifles that shoot. I have one barrel from TS customs and another rifle that he is about to finish up...and many friends that have rifles from him. I would have no trouble sending him more work.

The other option...as stated above is to buy a Desert Tech chassis and a TS customs barrel from Primal Rights. I have a tac ops as well...which is a great rifle...but the Desert Tech is the one that I shoot the most. The DT option is the faster of the two and will run about the same price (maybe slightly more) as a top tier full custom. Either will suffice for your needs.
I have already decided to employ Travis at TS Customs, regardless of my decision to build current rifle/custom rifle/DT...The problem is merely making the decision on what to pay for. My Remington 700 shoots so well already, its hard to find the need in paying for a full custom rifle or DT when I can pay a lot less to hone this one in based on its current performance. Decisions, decisions...
 
#28 ·
How about ergonomics? Is the rifle built around the core fundamentals of precision rifle accuracy, allowing you to interface with it in a way that encourages those techniques?

How about bolt lift and manipulation characteristics? Does the rifle allow you to return to battery without violating NPA?

How about design features? Does it present a stable platform, or will it present a changing situation that will need to be worked at all the time?
 
#29 ·
How about ergonomics? Is the rifle built around the core fundamentals of precision rifle accuracy, allowing you to interface with it in a way that encourages those techniques?

How about bolt lift and manipulation characteristics? Does the rifle allow you to return to battery without violating NPA?

How about design features? Does it present a stable platform, or will it present a changing situation that will need to be worked at all the time?
My Remington satisfies the bolt lift and manipulation characteristics...that's about it from this list...
 
#35 ·
... but does the desert tech actually violate NPA when you lift it? Ergo's can trump perceived "smoothness" also. ;)

Sometimes DT's need 500-1000 cycles before they loosen up a bit too. Also, the striker springs in the bolt can be modded to lighten things up, just as in regular bolt guns.
 
#36 ·
The ergo's on the DT are better than any bolt gun I have been behind. I have no problem manipulating the bolt while maintaining NPA. I thought a manners stock was the best thing out there until I got behind the DT.

And bolt lift/manipulation is not bad either...it is just not quite as smooth as the surgeon.
 
#40 ·
I like the dot test. I must have a new rifle my 700 mountain rifle barrel would melt down if I shot it that much ��. I also don't think I am going to go full custom at this point. If I go with a Howa barreled action and an after market chassis how much gun smithing is require? Or are they plug and play?
 
#41 ·
The Howas are plug and play.
You will want to get a heavy varmint barreled action.
Once you burn out the factory barrel, the action makes an excellent platform for a premium barrel.
 
#43 ·
DT's I would put in that category yes.

But like ddd said, a DT with a custom barrel from TS Customs isn't much different price wise than just a factory DT.
 
#46 ·
It will easily be worth the extra coin...especially when you really start learning the sport. A quality rifle built by a good smith will be more consistent, more accurate, and easier to load for than a factory rifle. The custom barrel will also be easier to clean, likely faster, and will require less break in than a factory barrel.
 
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