Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08) - Page 2

Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08)

This is a discussion on Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08) within the Rifles forums, part of the Sniping Related category; Wow. Mike, I found that to be an exceptionally articulate and solid statement I approve. While I am not much of a machinist, my father ...

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Thread: Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08)

  1. #11
    Senior Member CaliforniaCowboy's Avatar
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    Wow. Mike, I found that to be an exceptionally articulate and solid statement I approve. While I am not much of a machinist, my father is certified/qualified to machine medical equipment (LVADs as I know them, now they call them LVAS sometimes - see http://www.worldheart.com ) to .0001 (one ten thousandth of an inch: aluminum, steel, brass, and I believe titanium, but not sure), and he's not a designated machinist, the other machinists are certified beyond such. As he was a gunsmithing major in college, he is skeptical now as why with CNC machines and modern lathes that many tolerances have not grown way tighter. .001" is a relatively simple tolerance for most (not all) cuts with these tools.

    For my own understanding and education I would like to see a little more clarification. It would seem if the medical industry can get past the FDA's stringent requirements, I'd assume gunsmiths have the tools and potential on their hands to set such tolerances. I feel Im missing something here. Thanks! Cheers.
    "All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope."
    Sir Winston Churchill

  2. #12
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    Hey Mike,
    First off, I would like to commend you regarding the manner in which you handled this online situation. You maintained a proffesional demeanor, eloquently explaining the issues (while, quite honestly, absolutely dissecting others' arguments and slander) and made your position on future attacks firmly apparent. Well done, sir. America could use a few more like yourself.

    Now, one question, and if you cannot answer this, I will understand fully: I have done a bit of research on EDM machining, especially as it applies to the chambering of rifle barrels. A few single-shot gurus are using this process to manufacture extremely tight tolerance barrels. I just wondered if you guys had ever considered/do use this process?

    Finally, as a result of the great amount of respect you gained in many people's eyes from your recent post, I have a feeling you can only stand to gain business from this ordeal. While I cannot help your business right now, (fiscally responsible college student) I have every intent of ordering in the future. Don't go anywhere.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Nate
    NRA Service Rifle High Master
    President's Hundred
    US Distinguished Rifleman Badge
    NRA Silhouette AA

  3. #13
    Senior Member Cliffy's Avatar
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    Hello
    Very good read, Michael I can see you take alot of pride in your work and enjoy reading all your post here on SC.
    Here is question if the rifle is only as acurate as it worst tolrance, so the worst tolrance would be the ammo itself?

    Cliffy

  4. #14
    Member Gunners Mate's Avatar
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    From what I understand Tac-Ops builds some of the best rifles in the world. 1/4 MOA guarentee's are not BS at all, quite a few builders make this claim and full fill it too. Tac-Ops rifles are top grade rifles, no questions asked. Infact, I would argue that with perfect ammunition in perfect conditions, a 1/4 MOA rifle could shoot 1/10th MOA or better. Ammunition is almost always the limiting factor in a rifles accuracy. Ive seen 18" barreled rifles shoot under 1/4 MOA with factory ammo at an outdoor range. Any one who thinks building such a high quality peice of machinery is not possible needs to open there mind a bit, and get educated on the subject.
    Gunners Mate

  5. #15
    Senior Member Black Ops's Avatar
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    Mike, You ever check the straightness of a barrel bore?? Actully I know you have they wander over .002 even in the real good ones.

    Lathe Chucks, The Best Self centering ones guarentee .003 repeatability. Best Independant Chucks can be set to .0005 T.I.R.

    OK back to your statment of checking crown runnout , Im assuming you are saying you can indicate an independant 4 or 6 jaw chuck better than .0005 on a crown that is on a tapered blank to a crown that is most likly out of center up to.002 and then your going to put a tenth indicater where. on the crown??? Im pretty sure the lands and grooves would interfere with that measurment. Im not sure I followed you correctly.
    GAP



    Just seems to make more sense to write it once than say it 10 times. Then there are fewer misconceptions and misquotes.

    javentree


    George /javentree


    Our barreling lathe has two 4 jaw chucks, one inboard and one outboard of the headstock. We have lapped bore spuds with 1/10degree taper. The spuds are lapped on the diameter and checked with an optical flat straightness. When they become worn, they are discarded, or used for pin punches.
    We indicate the bore at both ends, until the run out at each end reads 0.000 with a tenths indicator.
    This makes the bore-to-barrel angularity, eccentricity and run out error extremely small…
    Now we just use a tenths indicator with a small conical carbide point to check the crown and muzzle chamber for square ness and concentricity. This is our standard set up for most barrel work. We also cut our chambers, and thread our bbls in this set-up. Krieger said our chamber was only 2 millionths eccentric when they inspected a barrel for us as previously stated. You can make these kinds of inspections, successfully, with care. They are extremely useful during your continuing rifle development. Keeping records of your inspection results will instantly reveal if a new procedure or part is actually delivering the results you want.

    With due respect this will be our final post on the matter regarding our procedures and protocol.

    Tac Ops
    "Every Great Warrior deserves a Great Death"

  6. #16
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    It has been successful on a wide variety of bolt actions. It seems that the receiver is just there to support the bolt until it is correctly locked up.
    This is something that AR-15 shooters have knonw about for a long time.

    As for Mike and TacOps...

    Mike called me one Saturday and we talked for a couple of hours. Almost everything he said in his post, he said to me in that phone call. He never seems shy about sharing what he does. Quite the contrary, he takes pride in doing what he does.

    I respect the man and his company.
    Guns don't kill people. Sarah Brady does.

  7. #17
    Senior Member SRTS1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nath
    What exactly does the 0.25 MOA gurantee mean? 0.25 MOA for the first 500 rounds or something like that?

    Thanks Nathan

    Let me put my .02 in here. I f I bought a rifle that was guaranteed to hold 1/4 minute or better, and it did so for only 500 rounds, there would be legal action quickly following. I have been an LE sniper since 1992 and have had many platforms. I have had 2 Tango 51 rifles since 1998. Over those years, my fist Tango has since accumulated 8260 rounds. Every round is catalogued to document barrel life. Now, we have a very strict policy regarding all of our bolt guns at my agency; all of the bolt guns get brushed and swabbed after every three rounds. Period. The aforementiond Tango 51 is still a 1/4 minute or better rifle after the 8260 rounds.
    I have been given authorization to replace any component deemed necessary by myself, if the rifles start losing accuracy. I have not done this because 1. It is not necessary yet. 2. I would like to get an idea of the service life of the rifles. I can honestly say that we are more than very pleased with the Tac Ops rifles and their service.
    Professionals that demand nothing less than the best, demand Tac Ops.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Recoil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRTS1
    I have been given authorization to replace any component deemed necessary by myself, if the rifles start losing accuracy.
    Cool thing is, you wouldn't even need to if you didn't want to. Mike would take care of you, no worries. He knows what your next shot might mean and Mike'll do his damndest to be sure TacOps is behind you all the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTS1
    I have not done this because 1. It is not necessary yet. 2. I would like to get an idea of the service life of the rifles. I can honestly say that we are more than very pleased with the Tac Ops rifles and their service.
    Testiment to quality right there.

    Folks, SRTS is one of those guys here who has BTDT and "knows better." Any doubters would be remiss to repudate what was just said by him, and thus truly expose their ignorance of this topic.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRTS1
    Let me put my .02 in here. I f I bought a rifle that was guaranteed to hold 1/4 minute or better, and it did so for only 500 rounds, there would be legal action quickly following. I have been an LE sniper since 1992 and have had many platforms. I have had 2 Tango 51 rifles since 1998. Over those years, my fist Tango has since accumulated 8260 rounds. Every round is catalogued to document barrel life. Now, we have a very strict policy regarding all of our bolt guns at my agency; all of the bolt guns get brushed and swabbed after every three rounds. Period. The aforementiond Tango 51 is still a 1/4 minute or better rifle after the 8260 rounds.
    I have been given authorization to replace any component deemed necessary by myself, if the rifles start losing accuracy. I have not done this because 1. It is not necessary yet. 2. I would like to get an idea of the service life of the rifles. I can honestly say that we are more than very pleased with the Tac Ops rifles and their service.
    Wish I had had a TacOps rifle when I went through sniper school back in '90. AND, I wish that we were even given the opportunity to clean bores after every 3rd round. I had a great platform(no names so no slams) that would shoot under 1/2 moa all day long. But, because of lack of knowledge from some LE trainers and time constraints, we were made to shoot up to 60 rounds between cleaning. I even got in "hot water" when I stopped shooting and tried to clean my bore. The rifle will still, after 5,000+ rounds will shoot under 3/4moa. I would think that is fairly good after the abuse "Baby" has taken. Anyway, the point of all this is, is to support your statement about barrel life and just like your car...if you change the oil every 3K miles, you are going to have much longer life from your barrel and your car. Shoot your rifle, clean it, respect it, and it will give you many years of great service. Thanks.
    "Firearms are tools; an means to an end. When a carpenter chooses a tool, he does so because it is the right tool for the job. So to, should it be with the professional shooter" Res Ipsa Loquitur

  10. #20
    Senior Member MEDIC103's Avatar
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    **Edited to remove immature comments**


    Mike, now that thats all done, please, go in your shop, find a Helix, throw it in some 4 jaw chuck,make it about two millionths cocentric,attach it to some lathe machine, and FINISH MY TANGO!!! Or,have Cesear do it if you're too busy on the phone.
    A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves.

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