Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08)

Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08)

This is a discussion on Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08) within the Rifles forums, part of the Sniping Related category; We at Tactical Operations have been "called out", and our integrity is in question. We have heard statements that our quarter minute guarantee is 100% ...

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    Senior Member Black Ops's Avatar
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    Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08)

    We at Tactical Operations have been "called out", and our integrity is in question.

    We have heard statements that our quarter minute guarantee is 100% B.S. and that the procedure of building precision rifles is done exactly the same by everyone. Some of debate became blatant personal bashing by people that don?t own one of our rifles or don?t know what we do, or how we do it. We are happy to attempt to clear the air and discuss some of our procedures (not all will be discussed, because several things we do are proprietary), how we build our weapon platforms, and why we do it. We will also address certain statements, questions, and assertions, some, of which, were legitimate, honest questions; some were loosely phrased as attacks on myself and my staff.




    Yes, we use similar components as many of our competitors.
    But what we do with those components is slightly different than other builders.

    Firstly, the myth or misconception is that ?trued is trued? when it comes to a receiver.
    It isn't that simple. You need to address these questions:
    What kind of surface finishes do you hold?
    What is your tolerance on alignment? How do you inspect your work;
    Dial caliper?; Depth gauge?; "Laser reflection"?.


    Simple math will make it clear to any mechanical engineer, that
    .0001 misalignment in the rifle equals .100 spread at 100 yards
    The laws of similar triangles or basic trigonometry will easily prove this maxim.

    Therefore, our job as rifle builders, is to constantly and consistently inspect our work to prevent accumulation of
    those errors, and to maintain tolerances to .0001 or better.
    An accumulation of .001 is fatal to consistent performance results.
    With highly skilled technicians using very expensive and precise equipment, "squareness"
    and "parallelism" of our bolts and
    receiver lugs can be, and are, held to tolerances within 50 millionths of an inch.
    The receiver is faced, and the threads are chased out with a single point tool
    at the same setting as the lug operation,
    insuring the "parallelism" of those surfaces as well.

    Our tolerances are checked and insured through "laser metrology".

    We used to check-lap our lugs with #320 abrasive, for 10 lifts of the bolt handle,
    to give visual indication of alignment. We haven?t done that for at least 8 years.
    With the high surface finishes we now achieve, we merely take a marking (Sharpie) pen and
    Put a thin coat of ink on the receiver and bolt lugs, and let it dry.
    With finger pressure on the bolt face, one lift of the bolt handle will wipe the surfaces
    clean in the engagement areas. You can only do that if your work is correctly done.
    Unless final lapping is properly applied, lug surfaces lose their concentric surface and produce grooves and
    hollows that will eventually wear flat causing ever
    increasing headspace. Poor, or excessive lapping results in tapered bolts and receiver lugs, reducing desirable contact area, resulting in uneven bolt lift, and sometimes excessive headspace that increases as the bolt is closed.
    Lapping the bolt and/or receiver lugs is merely an in-exact attempt to improve the surface
    finish of the machined lugs.


    So, one can see there are several ways to blue print a receiver.
    Perhaps, for some builders, true is square within .001. For Tactical Operations, square is 50 Millionths which is 20 times more accurate.



    Moreover, at the same time the bolt lugs are being machined, we also bring the bolt
    face perpendicular to the bolt axis. Our usual tolerances and finish prevail. The
    firing pin hole is checked for concentricity at the same time. If it isn?t acceptable tolerances,
    the bolt is scrapped before machining.

    In regard to barrels, there are many that are more than acceptable,but we have found Krieger
    barrels give us the best combination of accuracy and life.

    Another misconception; A chamber is just a chamber, and a reamer is just a reamer.

    chambering is not just chambering. What measure of alignment of the chamber to the
    bore do you get ? How closely is the bore centered before chambering ?
    001 ? 0001 ? .00005 ? How concentric is your chamber ? Is it concentric at all?
    To within what limits ? Is it round ? Just how round is it? How do other builders measure roundness?


    Krieger checked ours, and reported that we were only 2 millionths misaligned.
    with all due humility and respect, I submit that this is probably better than most.
    If one of you would like to call "FOUL" or "BS" on this, then I refer you to call Krieger (262-628-8558) and ask for
    Mike. I think he will be more than able to support our statement. By the way, they independently measured and
    verified the alignment.


    Further, a .308 reamer is not just a .308 reamer.
    The original .308 chamber was designed for use in semi-automatic and
    full automatic firearms. Machinegun chambers are not the best for a bolt gun.

    Even a ?minimum Match chamber? is just a minimum spec SAMMI chamber.
    We design our own reamers for the calibers we provide. They are made for
    closer tolerance, and "exactly" fit the match ammo we specify for the rifles.


    The neck, throat, and lead are extremely critical to bullet alignment,
    and are by far the most critical factors affecting accuracy.
    Any bullet that starts into the lead misaligned, will not be turning on it?s mechanical
    axis when it leaves the muzzle. The bullet will be flying with its nose and base
    describing a tiny circle, instead of turning true on it?s mechanical axis.
    This makes the bullet behave similar to an unbalanced gyroscope.
    Due to precession forces, the bullet flies in a helix around the true line of flight.
    On impact, that bullet can land on the target anywhere within the circle described
    by the diameter of the helix. The greater the misalignment of the bullet, the greater
    the size of the helix.

    The greater the size of the helix, the greater the size of the group at all distances.

    Our job as accuracy rifle builders is to reduce the alignment error of the bullet,
    and eliminate factors that upset its flight (such as the muzzle face and crown), to keep
    the helix diameter to the absolute minimum.

    Headspace: What?s your tolerance and why?
    Many, many times we have heard others tell us the bolt should
    ?close on a GO and halfway on a NO GO?.
    That?s fine for a hunting rifle, or firearm that doesn?t require pinpoint accuracy.

    We routinely use 0.000 head space with a maximum of 0.001
    The reason, is that we have to have both locking lugs fully
    seated at the time of ignition.


    An unseated lug will move during ignition as it seats,
    allowing the case head to wiggle or shift minutely, affecting the alignment
    of the case in the chamber which affects bullet alignment and
    helix diameter.


    Having the locking lugs flat and ultra smooth also allows
    the case head to align the bolt in the receiver, as it closes,
    rather than the bolt influencing the cartridge.
    For this reason the looseness of the Remington receiver doesn?t affect the way
    our rifles shoot, and allows valuable space for the dirt and sand to fall
    out of them. Our system of loose receiver/ floating bolt/ tight chamber,
    seems to work on any bolt receiver we?ve tried it on
    .

    It has been successful on a wide variety of bolt actions. It seems that the receiver
    is just there to support the bolt until it is correctly locked up.

    We hold tolerances and perform constant inspections,
    we design and make special tools and fixtures, to do jobs,
    there are stock items easily available but we choose to make our own.

    Tac-Ops rifles are painstakingly built one at time.
    Some would say such work costs too much in terms of time and tool investment.
    As stated on our web site ?Every rifle, Suppressor, bag or any product we provide
    is made as if it were being built and used for ourselves. Further more we also
    hold a U.S. patent on one of our suppressor design


    I hope the above was helpful in explaining a little bit about how
    and why we do what we do here at Tac Ops.




    In closing, let me address some issues that were in question. I'm sure from
    reading what we stated above, clearly shows that we do
    things differently here at Tac Ops.

    I have little doubt now, that when we address some issues that were posted
    in certain forum threads, our position will be crystal clear.
    This should be the
    tell all, end all statement for anyone who had, has, or will have questions or doubts
    about our accuracy statements or our business philosophy


    I apologize for not clearing things up earlier, As I think it could
    have brought an early end to the seemingly endless forum threads,
    hostilities, and yes even threats.
    I realize now that I should have spoken
    out sooner to have minimize this frenzy. However in truth we tried to
    stay out of the fray and remain above this. And to be totally honest, we
    have more important things to do.
    I only request that you remember we
    were ?CALLED OUT? and not to nicely at that. Please understand that one may
    perceive what?s going to be stated will be somewhat harsh.
    We at Tac Ops
    never stated we were the smartest or the most intelligent builders in the industry
    and we are certainly not the only Company in business to guarantee 1/4 moa in this industry.






    Your rifles I'm sure are awesome, they look good and shoot good but if you think a .0005 out spec recoil lug is making your gun a ? compared to a 1/4 moa gun. You need to have a long sit down with some other smiths and get out to the range.

    SKRanger

    Shannon, Regarding our tolerances for recoil lugs: It is not that the lug being
    .0005 out changes the accuracy potential from 1/2 to ? MOA. Experiments and
    record keeping over the last decade, have clearly shown that tapered recoil lugs
    affect barrel/receiver/bolt alignment adversely. Considering the location of the
    misalignment caused by the tapered lug, its effect is magnified by barrel length.
    We go to extreme lengths to achieve perfect alignment. No one is forcing
    Other builders to do the same. Tac-Ops has exacting tolerance standards for
    all parts of our rifles. Misalignment and dimensional error is cumulative.
    Taking pains to eliminate it results in improved accuracy. At our level of finish
    And inspection, .0005 is a significant amount. Most others don?t work to the
    Limits we do. Their choice. In the average rifle, .0005 is insignificant. Accuracy
    Is improved by eliminating errors in construction. A better BBL is one that?s
    Uniform and has less tolerance errors in the bore. Receiver re-machining is to
    Eliminate tolerance and alignment errors installed at the factory. A bolt that is
    ground square on the lugs and bolt face is better than a rough
    one or out-of-square one. The surface finish of the parts is important. We hold
    finishes on lugs to about .5 to 1.5 RMS. A bolt that is turned, not ground, has a
    surface roughness mean of greater than .001.(approx.10-12 RMS)
    Therefore any misalignment elsewhere in that rifle of less then .001 is
    meaningless. A .0005 lug taper, is below the inspection tolerances limit,
    established by the rest of that rifle. Lapping the bolt/receiver lugs is merely
    an inexact attempt to improve the surface finish of the machined lugs.


    Tac Ops



    Not even Surgeons are perfect. I was informed today that lugs
    had to be lapped and checked. While I'll agree they are better,
    they are still not perfect.

    Kgunz11
    Kgunz, Lapping lugs is important on all recievers period. BAT,
    Nesika, Surgeon thats absolutly no pun that somone had to
    lapp lugs on a Surgeon? You a gunsmith now?


    George Gardner, G.A. Precision

    No George, I am not a gunsmith, nor have I ever claimed to be.
    Was simply making a statement that the receiver I paid $1053.oo for
    to have a rifle built would still need action work. I was under the
    impression that the action would not have to be touched... I am sure
    there are others that thought that as well.

    Kgunz11

    At Tac Ops we do not lap, we use another procedure.

    Tac Ops



    Originally posted by S-1 on AR Tactcal The crown of the barrel
    Is .005 ? out of squre to a coaxially aligned bore .160? from the
    Bore of the center.

    Please let us all know how you measured 5 tenthouands of an inch
    On a crown ??? this I have to hear and see. For those wondering
    These tolerance are impossible to hold on any lathe currently made.
    But I guess it is possible louis has invented something no one else
    Knows about.

    George Gardner, G.A. precision
    Disclaimer We are not in this particular debate but we would like to
    Share How this procedure can be done. One would put a tenths
    Indicator on the muzzle and revolve the chuck this would give you
    the reading.

    Most high quality tool room lathes will easily hold .0001.

    We routinely hold .0001 for squareness and parallelism.

    Here at Tac Ops have a manual lathe that will hold 50 millionths.
    We periodically check by cutting a one foot test bar several times
    a Year.

    Tac Ops



    Personally I don?t put much stock in a 1/4 MOA guarantee as it will
    Only work at shorter distances where the wind won?t start messing
    With you and most people can?t shoot that well anyways.

    Rob01
    That accurate rifles only work at short distances.
    Utterly false.
    A bullet that is started straight, and flies with its rotational axis
    Concentric with its trajectory, will always shoot straighter
    And more consistently, than a rifle whose bullet is launched
    With the rotational axis is precessing slightly as it flies.
    Rather than flying a straight line, the bullet flies in a small
    helix around the line of flight. As the bullet slows, the rpm drops,
    and the helix size increases. The bullet can strike anywhere on the
    target inside that circle described by the helix. A 100 to 200 yard
    test target is a good indicator of intrinsic helix diameter. This is why
    a rifle that shoots 1/4 minute or better, will always be a better
    performer that one which delivers larger groups.

    This was mixed with the notion that wind invalidates all accuracy.
    Wind affects ALL bullets to some extent. The issue here is that the
    Assertion that wind affects all bullets equally. Wind in a directional
    Input vector. As such, wind will change the bullets line of flight
    depending on the force and direction of the wind. Bullets that are
    already flying in a helix will see the size of the helix increase as the
    wind pushes on them at all points in the helix. The wind increases
    the precessive forces already at work. A bullet turning on axis flying
    in a zero helix or minuscule helix will be deflected by the wind, but
    since precessive forces are small, to begin with, the magnitude of
    the change will be smaller. Due to the lesser off the flight path time
    the wind had to work on the bullet, the recessive vector is smaller.
    Hence, deflection, but little increase in group size.


    Tac Ops

    __________________________________________________ _________


    UPDATE 1/22/08

    I have a Jet suppressor attached to a GAP 22" barrel on an AI AW. It tends to work itself loose after several shots, which affects the accuracy. What do you guys do to keep this from happening, but still allow for quick removal? Thanks.
    _________________________
    Many risks fail because they were not taken in time. Too
    Many risks are postponed until unnecessarily elaborate
    preparations are made...Don't sit back waiting for the perfect
    moment. It almost never comes.

    http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=13383

    We would like to share our professional opinion:

    Excuse my delay but we have been very busy since coming back on line from the New Year. Let me try to address some concerns here and if one needs more intel please feel free to contact me telephonically.

    Very slight Point of impact changes resulting from installing/ removing a
    rifle Suppressor can result from slight changes in barrel harmonics, larger
    impact changes are usually the result of cumulative machining errors. Two
    of the main causes of impact shifts, after screwing on a suppressor are:


    1. A lack of barrel shoulder squareness (perpendicularity to the bore's
    centerline).

    2. Poorly cut barrel threads that are not co-axially aligned with the
    bore centerline, or barrel threads that are cut too small to fit the
    suppressor threads properly, once again allowing misalignment of the
    suppressor.

    Of course the poorer the thread fit, the more any misalignment inherent in
    the shoulder will force the suppressor off line.

    If there is an out-of-square condition of the shoulder surrounding the
    the threads on the back of the suppressor, you should have chosen a higher
    quality suppressor manufacturer.

    The impact shift on our Tac Ops rifles is less than 1/2 MOA. The vast
    majority of this shift is caused by a slight change in the barrels
    harmonics with the additional mass of the suppressor, as our machining and alignment tolerances are held to extremely high standards. Plumbers tape would never be used under any circumstances and is not necessary. In fact our suppressor to barrel fit is so good, even the thinnest of Plumber's tape would not survive the install of our suppressor; there just is not enough room for any trash to be in between our threads, the fit is that precise. Truly skilled machinists do not use Plumber's tape, they just cut the threads to the correct size knowing how key this is to proper alignment.

    A three jaw chuck will not do for muzzle threading, when long range
    precision is desired. Even when new, the best 3 jaw chucks are only good
    for .0015" concentricity (1 1/2 thousandths).

    We use different fixtures so that the barrel can be controlled and true
    alignment achieved. This is important, because small errors in alignment
    become big errors in impact at extended range. Zero runout with a .0001"
    indicator is the only acceptable outcome for long range work.

    We CNC our screw on caps to protect the barrel while not in
    use, our cap does NOT Change the harmonics of the barrel what's so ever.

    Group size change indicates the bullet is probably scraping one of the
    baffles on its flight through the can or possibly grazing the end cap ever
    so slightly as the bullet exits the can. This is another area, where
    INTENSIVE ATTENTION TO DETAIL to machining, and detailed inspections
    deliver accuracy, and the user-friendly operation of the firearm. The bottom line we would not ever recommend plumbers tape, I hope this puts your mind at ease.



    Tac Ops

    __________________________________________________ _________



    Finally, I would like to thank everyone that has taken time to read
    Our statement, visit our website, or called and took the time to speak
    To me or one of my staff. It is my sincere hope and desire that this
    Statement is the end to what has been an emotion filled and taxing
    Time for everyone involed, whether or not you own a Tac-Ops rifle or
    A competitor?s rifle. Tactical Operations is an honorable and fair
    Business, run by professional standards and we will not be party to
    The bashing or slander of a competitor nor will we attack a competitor
    Without provocation and most importantly without facts. We command
    Respect through our actions not by request, and any person(s) or
    Engaging in future libelous or slanderous activities against Tactical
    Operations or staff will be met with legal intervention.


    Michael Rescigno
    Tactical Operations, Inc
    101pathfinder and DonDick like this.
    "Every Great Warrior deserves a Great Death"

  2. #2
    Senior Member ekaphoto's Avatar
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    Nice write up Mike. Thanks. Hopefully this clears up some peoples questions.
    John

    1.Humans are more important than Hardware.

    2.Quality is better than Quantity.

    3.Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.

    4.Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.

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    Senior Member slip's Avatar
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    Hi

    After this article I will have no question to ask Ekaphoto u are right article is full of intel. I hope mods will mark this writeup as sticky!
    Later
    "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." -- Bruce Lee

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    Amen Brother.

    Thank you although it is a bitter sweet feeling i felt as i was reading it.

    Sweet because you explained things the way they really are.

    Bitter because you were FORCED to explain things in the first place.

    Like you said, hopefully now it ends it all and all those non believers cease the BS, accusations and character assassination aimed at TacOps, TacOps owners and Sniper Central and its members.

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    WOW! I think that should answer some of the questions posed by the nay sayers. Very informative.
    How can anyone argue or dispute that? Just don't give too many secrets away Mike. That is why you continue to stay on top.
    I believe if life gives you lemons make lemonade then find someone that life gave vodka to and have a party. Ron White

  7. #6
    Sponsors mele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nath
    I have a question and I'm in no way calling you out, I'm just curious about something that was raised. What exactly does the 0.25 MOA gurantee mean? 0.25 MOA for the first 500 rounds or something like that?
    I'm not going to put words in Mikes mouth, but typically the guarantee means that when the rifle leaves the factory it will shoot .25, or .375, or .5 (what ever the guarantee is). Because rifles do wear ot out, some calibers quicker than others, and dependent upon care of the rifle by the owner and what ammo is shot, etc, no one really can guarantee accuracy for a certain number of rounds. That being said, with my Bravo-51 with over 500 rounds through it, it is shooting more accurate now than it ever has. It is common "understanding" that most rifles shoot better after 200 rounds than when new. My bravo shot under .25 when new, and the last time I took it out, it shot the best it ever has... here is a photo.



    It measures .10" CtoC

    MEL

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    Thanks Mel.

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    Thanks for the write up Mike!

  10. #9
    Senior Member Winny's Avatar
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    Mike....nice write up. Maybe that will help end this debate taht you and your company were unfairly dragged into.


    Also....I really don't understand most of the technical information you spoke of, but.......make sure you do all that TWICE on my Echo


    B.
    "For you be strong, do not let your hands be weak, your work shall be well rewarded."

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    Junior Member a10xrifle's Avatar
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    Mike, You ever check the straightness of a barrel bore?? Actully I know you have they wander over .002 even in the real good ones.

    Lathe Chucks, The Best Self centering ones guarentee .003 repeatability. Best Independant Chucks can be set to .0005 T.I.R.

    OK back to your statment of checking crown runnout , Im assuming you are saying you can indicate an independant 4 or 6 jaw chuck better than .0005 on a crown that is on a tapered blank to a crown that is most likly out of center up to.002 and then your going to put a tenth indicater where. on the crown??? Im pretty sure the lands and grooves would interfere with that measurment. Im not sure I followed you correctly.
    George Gardner, G.A. Precision Rifles

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