What are the pros/cons of FFP?

What are the pros/cons of FFP?

This is a discussion on What are the pros/cons of FFP? within the Optics forums, part of the Sniping Related category; I'm looking for optics for a couple of my rifles and I'm going to go with Nightforce optics. Specifically the 5.5-22x56 with 0-stop. My question ...

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  1. #1
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    What are the pros/cons of FFP?

    I'm looking for optics for a couple of my rifles and I'm going to go with Nightforce optics.
    Specifically the 5.5-22x56 with 0-stop.
    My question is what are the pros and cons of going with the soon to be released 5.5-22x56 FFP scope?

    Pros:
    - Can use mil ranging at any magnification

    Cons:
    ???

    Best Regards,
    Tim
    Rem700 XCR TLR .308win, Near 25MOA base, Nightforce steel rings x 3, US Optics Anti Cant, Nightforce Co-Sine Indicator,JP Tactical Muzzle Brake, V-Bull Mag System, Jewell HVR Trigger,Versa Pod Bi-Pod, McMillian Saddle Cheekpiece, Anschutz Rail

  2. #2

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    Con?: Recticle changes size with power change.

  3. #3
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    FFP:
    + Reticle is always accurate for measuring distances (not dependent on the magnification)
    + Adjusting magnification cannot change point-of-impact.
    - Reticle changes size when adjusting magnification. On lower mags the reticle is very thin. If you take a look at S&B scopes the reticles have thick black bars on the edges to allow shooter to aim quickly on lower mags. On higher mags reticle may become quite thick. Thick reticle covers the target more making accurate shooting a bit more difficult.

    SFP:
    + Reticle is always the same size
    +/- Reticle is accurate only on one magnification -> If you use other magnifications, shooting/measuring needs more calculation -> more chance for errors especially in high stress situations. This is the reason why many military scopes are FFP.
    On the other hand with scopes like Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical, you can take this into your advantage. Mildot is accurate at 12x, so if you use 24x the distance between dots is 0.5 mrad instead of 1 mrad. This allows shooting/measuring more accurately.
    - On lower price scopes adjusting magnification can affect point-of-impact.

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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by puppezed
    FFP:
    + Reticle is always accurate for measuring distances (not dependent on the magnification)
    + Adjusting magnification cannot change point-of-impact.
    - Reticle changes size when adjusting magnification. On lower mags the reticle is very thin. If you take a look at S&B scopes the reticles have thick black bars on the edges to allow shooter to aim quickly on lower mags. On higher mags reticle may become quite thick. Thick reticle covers the target more making accurate shooting a bit more difficult.

    SFP:
    + Reticle is always the same size
    +/- Reticle is accurate only on one magnification -> If you use other magnifications, shooting/measuring needs more calculation -> more chance for errors especially in high stress situations. This is the reason why many military scopes are FFP.
    On the other hand with scopes like Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical, you can take this into your advantage. Mildot is accurate at 12x, so if you use 24x the distance between dots is 0.5 mrad instead of 1 mrad. This allows shooting/measuring more accurately.
    - On lower price scopes adjusting magnification can affect point-of-impact.
    Just to clarify, what you are saying is that if for instance I'm 1MOA low at 100yards I can use a hold over to compensate for this. Then when i shoot at 600yards and I'm 1MOA low I can use the same exact hold over I used for the 100yard 1MOA low shot?
    Correct me if I'm wrong I just want to make sure the I select the best scope for my application. I do not use the scope to do ranging to often right now but would like to in the future and I enjoy 600+yard shooting so I want to make sure that the retical is not to large that it covers my groups at longer ranges.

    Best Regards,
    Tim
    Rem700 XCR TLR .308win, Near 25MOA base, Nightforce steel rings x 3, US Optics Anti Cant, Nightforce Co-Sine Indicator,JP Tactical Muzzle Brake, V-Bull Mag System, Jewell HVR Trigger,Versa Pod Bi-Pod, McMillian Saddle Cheekpiece, Anschutz Rail

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by timoram
    Just to clarify, what you are saying is that if for instance I'm 1MOA low at 100yards I can use a hold over to compensate for this. Then when i shoot at 600yards and I'm 1MOA low I can use the same exact hold over I used for the 100yard 1MOA low shot?
    Correct me if I'm wrong I just want to make sure the I select the best scope for my application. I do not use the scope to do ranging to often right now but would like to in the future and I enjoy 600+yard shooting so I want to make sure that the retical is not to large that it covers my groups at longer ranges.

    Best Regards,
    Tim
    We are talking about two different things here. The construction of an SFP scope can allow POI to change when adjusting magnification if the scope is poorly manufactured. A Finnish hunting magazine tested all kinds of scopes in the 90´s and most of the lower end scopes (Bushnell, Tasco etc, can´t remember which models, cheaper than Bushnell Elite though) had this problem. The point of impact could change a few centimeters at 100 meters range when the magnification was changed from the lowest to the highest setting. I don´t know how common this issue is nowadays but I´ve heard about some Zos scopes having these problems.

    I don´t think this will be an issue with Nightforce SFP scopes

    I´ll refer to wikipedia on this subject:
    "Variable power telescopic sights with front focal plane reticles have no problems with point of impact shifts. Variable power telescopic sights with rear focal plane reticles can have slight point of impact shifts through their magnification range caused by the positioning of the reticle in the mechanical zoom mechanism in the rear part of the telescopic sight."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescopic_sight

  7. #6
    Senior Member Kiwi's Avatar
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    The reticle of a FFP scope does not cover more of the target at higher magnifications or less of the target at lower magnifications.

    The amount of target that is covered by the reticle remains the same at any magnification because the target gets larger or smaller along with the reticle at the exact same rate.

    POI shift in a SFP scope can have more to do with differing parallax requirements at different magnifications and if there is no parallax adjustment then you may have a POI problem due to the visual "movement" of the reticle if your head moves on the stock.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Quick's Avatar
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    Does that mean that if you have an adjustable parallax on your scope, you shouldn't have a POI shift, or it just reduces the amount?? As Im tossing up between FFP and SFP and have only used SFP scopes.
    Shaun aka "Quick"
    Two Rocks, Western Australia

    Precision Rifles:

    Remington 700 "F-Class" 7mm08AI, 308 Win, 6x47AI
    Remington 700 "Custom Marksman" .308 Win
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    Anschutz 1416D HB .22LR

  9. #8
    Senior Member becks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick
    Im tossing up between FFP and SFP and have only used SFP scopes.
    I am in the same thought prosess myself.
    I shoot at like the minimum level of magnification needed, alwase have, I like it so the FFP really sounds good to me, but if you like a ton of power when shooting I think it might be not as easy a thing to go over to.

    Just my thoughts.
    #2 Infidel
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Quick's Avatar
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    Well, I haven't really used many variable scopes, and when I have, they have just stayed at the most used power. I don't want too much power, that's why I like the 4-14x mag range. Good for out to 1000yds.
    Shaun aka "Quick"
    Two Rocks, Western Australia

    Precision Rifles:

    Remington 700 "F-Class" 7mm08AI, 308 Win, 6x47AI
    Remington 700 "Custom Marksman" .308 Win
    Weatherby Vanguard .223 Rem
    Anschutz 1416D HB .22LR

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi
    The reticle of a FFP scope does not cover more of the target at higher magnifications or less of the target at lower magnifications.

    The amount of target that is covered by the reticle remains the same at any magnification because the target gets larger or smaller along with the reticle at the exact same rate.
    I agree. I just meant that usually (of course depending on the scope) the reticle of a SFP scope covers less than the reticle of a FFP scope when maximum magnification is used.

    FFP Menace @ 4x:
    btw this picture nicely shows why for example S&B FFP scopes have thick bars at the edges of the reticle instead of thinner or for example the skeleton ones used in Falcon.

    FFP Menace @ 14x:

    Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical @ some magnification:



    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi
    POI shift in a SFP scope can have more to do with differing parallax requirements at different magnifications and if there is no parallax adjustment then you may have a POI problem due to the visual "movement" of the reticle if your head moves on the stock.
    Is this really an SFP feature only? How come it wouldn´t affect FFP scopes? The Zos scope I referred to had adjustable objective.

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