Reducing SD and ES - Page 3

Reducing SD and ES

This is a discussion on Reducing SD and ES within the Reloading forums, part of the Sniping Related category; Back to the issue I just loaded forty rounds, with four different types of primers. They're going to get shot through the chrono tomorrow Then ...

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Thread: Reducing SD and ES

  1. #21
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    Back to the issue
    I just loaded forty rounds, with four different types of primers.
    They're going to get shot through the chrono tomorrow

    Then I simply select the best primer with the lowest ES/SD, correct? as I've already determined the best combination of powder/brass/bullet and seating depth
    Or will all this be thrown off?

    How much will the primer affect my other results?
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  2. #22
    Sponsors Orkan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarnar View Post
    Woman, actually. My wife. And I don't take her advice. She knows very little about fire arms and as she says she's "just a chemist" She just has access to chronographs and certified measuring tools which she is kind enough to use on my behalf.

    I've never chronographed anything before so I wasn't able to offer instructions as to how it's done correctly.

    However, I'm not sure I agree with the statement regarding scientific forensics being a joke. The majority of it is analytical chemistry and simple comparison, which is well established as a science. I'd like to hear some more of your other reasons
    Look at me stepping on my dick. I meant no disrespect to your wife. My apologies.

  3. #23
    Senior Member mamalukino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarnar View Post
    Back to the issue
    I just loaded forty rounds, with four different types of primers.
    They're going to get shot through the chrono tomorrow

    Then I simply select the best primer with the lowest ES/SD, correct? as I've already determined the best combination of powder/brass/bullet and seating depth
    Or will all this be thrown off?

    How much will the primer affect my other results?
    Changing any component can have consequences either good or bad.
    Different primers can definitely effect the MV and may need a powder adjustment.
    Your original load may pleasantly surprise you with the chrono moved out to 10 feet.
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  5. #24
    Senior Member 8SAM46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypo View Post
    Mounting it on a Garand might be tricky.
    I just checked, it's tricksy but it fits ok with the Sportsman.

    ~Ben
    Hypo likes this.

  6. #25
    Senior Member deadshot2's Avatar
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    Back to the question of how to lower ES/SD, among the anal retentive crowd known as Benchrest Shooters, the holy grail of consistent ammo is Case Preparation.

    They spend more time on case prep than any other aspect of their "sport".

    Matching case capacities in batches by using water fill or actual case weights, Annealing, neck turning not only to fit their custom chambers but also to achieve consistency that factories won't produce in neck wall thickness. Couple all that with the proper amount of neck tension by selecting the right bushing for neck sizing or having the die maker hone one to their specs.

    Neck tension is so important to consistency they often use none at all. Some shooters, that aren't under a time constraint in their competition, will merely "stuff" a bullet into the lands using a separate tool that inserts the bullet into the lands with micrometer accuracy. They then use a case that's been primed, charged, and capped with some green florist's foam--just something to hold the powder in place.

    For those that have a time constraint and can't breech load their bullets as described, will use only enough neck tension to keep the bullet from sliding all the way into the case on it's own. The final seating is done when the bolt is closed on this "minimal neck tension" cartridge.

    For my case prep I merely clean in SS Pins, Anneal, Neck size with a bushing and then in a final step make sure all neck ID's are the same by using a mandrel type expander. The cases, when new, were fired once, F/L sized, then the necks were "skim cut" to just true them people used to do with tires. Not necessarily cut all the way around the circumference but enough to insure that at least 3/4 of the way around the neck is uniform in thickness.

    This gives me cartridges that I don't have to be ultra careful when handling and can load from a magazine if I so choose.


    As for the Chrono Readings? When I see groups that are measuring sub .250 MOA on a regular basis, the only reading I care about from the chrono is the average speed. I use that to fill one of the "boxes" in my Ballistic's program for use in multiple distance calculations. Unless your chronograph uses the old "shoot through" contact sheets (one use per) the sensors can be triggered by different parts of the bullet as it passes "through". The most accurate method if you can afford it is Ulta High Speed Video with a distance measuring background like used on Mythbusters and in a lot of labs. Unfortunately those cameras can run easily from the low 5 figures up into the low 6 figures. Everything else is "value engineered" for the intended user.

  7. #26
    Senior Member str8shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarnar View Post
    I want the Lab Radar one! It's doplar and can produce velocities up to 100 yards down range. I've seen comparisons to oehler and they produce the same results.
    It's an awesome concept but it has very much been a unicorn. For the last two years I have been hearing about it and have seen a few actually make it out to the market. Usually people that are involved in marketing or sales. For kicks go look on LRH and look at how long the thread has been and all the back orders. Still not close to general market production. Delay after excuse after more delays and excuses. Star wars light sabers are cool ideas and concepts too.....Right up their with Barry's hope and change.....
    mamalukino, deadshot2 and Olmott like this.

  8. #27
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    Orkan, no worries. She actually gets mad at me when I assume she knows what I'm saying when I start talking to her about this stuff. But some of the guys she works with are jokes, and these are the ones that are actual "gun experts."
    As I'm sure you know, theres a huge gap between practical knowledge and book knowledge when it comes to this stuff.

    Regarding my ES/SD issue

    I actually ran the math on the values I got from the too close chrono tests and at 500 yards theres only a 5-1/2 inch drop between the fastest and the slowest value. Using the average value thats still close enough to kill ground squirrels at that range.

    However theres good news. Mrs. Ragnarnar was kind enough to re-chrono the rounds I loaded last night. This time at an appropriate range of 8-1/2 feet.

    A few of the values didn't get recorded, but I got what I needed.

    Again the load is 25.4gr BL-C(2), 70gr Berger VLD Target, in Lapua brass.

    CCI BR-4: Mean 2925 SD 11.56
    CCI No.41 (for 5.56) Mean 2931 SD 12.6
    CCI No. 450 (SRMP) Mean 2923 SD 9.1
    CCI No. 400 (SRP) Mean 2892 SD 28.6

    (I wasn't able to find any 7-1/2's)

    Obviously I'm going with the magnum primers, a SD of 9 fps is better than I could have hoped for this early on.....
    I'm really interested to see what happens if/when I get around to annealing, neck turning and anything else I do.

    Thanks for the help with this one folks, I don't know why it didn't occur to me to me that muzzle blast would affect the chrono readings

    edit: just found this
    http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/1...rimers-powder/
    take a look at the primers part.
    Last edited by Ragnarnar; 01-29-2016 at 09:42 PM.
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  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by str8shot View Post
    It's an awesome concept but it has very much been a unicorn. For the last two years I have been hearing about it and have seen a few actually make it out to the market. Usually people that are involved in marketing or sales. For kicks go look on LRH and look at how long the thread has been and all the back orders. Still not close to general market production. Delay after excuse after more delays and excuses. Star wars light sabers are cool ideas and concepts too.....Right up their with Barry's hope and change.....
    Damn! I wanted one....
    They had a booth a SHOT. They had a few units sitting there, but I was unimpressed with their literature and display

    I'm fortunate that I have a chrono at my disposal that I didn't have to pay for....

    Um.... something about me hoping that they'll change their marketing and start shipping them out.... I swear I had something for this
    Last edited by Ragnarnar; 01-29-2016 at 09:31 PM.
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  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarnar View Post
    Orkan, no worries. She actually gets mad at me when I assume she knows what I'm saying when I start talking to her about this stuff. But some of the guys she works with are jokes, and these are the ones that are actual "gun experts."
    As I'm sure you know, theres a huge gap between practical knowledge and book knowledge when it comes to this stuff.

    Regarding my ES/SD issue

    I actually ran the math on the values I got from the too close chrono tests and at 500 yards theres only a 5-1/2 inch drop between the fastest and the slowest value. Using the average value thats still close enough to kill ground squirrels at that range.

    However theres good news. Mrs. Ragnarnar was kind enough to re-chrono the rounds I loaded last night. This time at an appropriate range of 8-1/2 feet.

    A few of the values didn't get recorded, but I got what I needed.

    Again the load is 25.4gr BL-C(2), 70gr Berger VLD Target, in Lapua brass.

    CCI BR-4: Mean 2925 SD 11.56
    CCI No.41 (for 5.56) Mean 2931 SD 12.6
    CCI No. 450 (SRMP) Mean 2923 SD 9.1
    CCI No. 400 (SRP) Mean 2892 SD 28.6

    (I wasn't able to find any 7-1/2's)

    Obviously I'm going with the magnum primers, a SD of 9 fps is better than I could have hoped for this early on.....
    I'm really interested to see what happens if/when I get around to annealing, neck turning and anything else I do.

    Thanks for the help with this one folks, I don't know why it didn't occur to me to me that muzzle blast would affect the chrono readings

    edit: just found this
    Top Bullets, Brass, Primers & Powder - What The Pros Use - PrecisionRifleBlog.com
    take a look at the primers part.
    I have to say... thank you.

    You have no idea how refreshing it is for me to see someone doing testing themselves, getting advice here, and then going to do real world testing of their own and working through these issues. Someone ACTUALLY shooting, rather than just talking about it. More amazing still is the fact that you are remaining objective and data-oriented in your approach. You have absolutely no idea how refreshing it is to have an opportunity to help someone such as yourself. Bravo sir, and I look forward to seeing more of your work.

  11. #30
    Senior Member deadshot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarnar View Post

    Obviously I'm going with the magnum primers, a SD of 9 fps is better than I could have hoped for this early on.....
    I'm really interested to see what happens if/when I get around to annealing, neck turning and anything else I do.
    Just some feedback from my experiences, if you can lay your hands on some Tula primers do so and see what kind of SD/ES you see from them. With well prepped cases and well developed loads, they've yielded "numbers" in the low single digits. When I print the string out when finished shooting, and see an ES number (not SD but ES) of 8, I'd say these primers do rather well. Unfortunately I don't have anyone nearby that stocks them so I buy them by the case when in stock at my supplier. Used to get them under the "Wolf" name but now only Tula's from my supplier and they appear to be the same in all performance aspects.

    BTW, when gathering chrono data, I prefer to run long strings. Minimum of 20 and sometimes up to 50 (just shoot over the chrono during a regular range session). Larger sample sizes give truer numbers. In a string of 5 or so, it only takes ONE round to blow the ES number out of the ballpark. In a larger sample size it stands out as an anomaly.
    Last edited by deadshot2; 01-30-2016 at 07:06 AM.

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