585 HE -- Cases In Production -- - Page 2

585 HE -- Cases In Production --

This is a discussion on 585 HE -- Cases In Production -- within the Rifles forums, part of the Sniping Related category; You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack ...

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  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
    of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
    We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
    insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
    can load from the top.

    Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
    Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
    they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted
    easy like the new ones from Bertram.

    Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
    There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
    all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
    called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
    For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.
    There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
    fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.
    We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.
    We simplified it to get the 12 figure, It is inverse of the bore dia x 5
    For the 585 it comes out about 10
    Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.
    ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi
    Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
    peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.
    Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
    a real moderate load in this case. Could use 10 in place of 12,
    but kept it all simple
    ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi
    The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
    a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed
    Ed Hubel

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about, we
    can use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
    to 1200gr, to 1600gr.

    Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
    the powder settled, looks like.

    We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
    basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
    And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made now
    to go with new ones we got left. One which went on this BBK
    pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one Ruger, 2 in PHs.
    Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed

    Ed Hubel

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
    And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
    barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
    hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
    Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..

    Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE.
    Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
    and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
    Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use
    577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed as 585HE.
    58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed

    PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
    of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions
    set up to use them in. .
    Ed Hubel

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  5. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
    in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
    Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
    dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D.
    There soon will be 3 reamers there.
    And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there.
    I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.
    Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
    allanswan at uplink.net.au.

    WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
    wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
    own headstamp.Ed

    Ed Hubel

  6. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
    stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
    don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have
    aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks.
    And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
    recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
    too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute.
    We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of.
    They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight.
    They add just the right weight and and wedge in good.
    And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
    a piece of dense foam under butt pad.

    We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
    we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
    with the bullets loaded out longer. And we have those heavy
    powder loads with 650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield
    pictured I use as one of my test guns.

    And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the
    585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us
    around like a weathervane.. Ed

    Ed Hubel

  7. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
    brass cases reworked 577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down
    to .720"... the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that 24ga
    plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot
    of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out.
    The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie
    bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585", 440gr to 540gr.
    Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas.
    Guys on GB sells the .585" minies. And the brass cases, we don't have
    to wait for them to be made.

    Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before
    screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if
    monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed

    Ed Hubel

  8. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    Here is picture of 585HE with 24ga FH ...585 the longer one.
    Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber rifled barrels.
    Different easy usages, 24ga FH is an easy setup in break
    actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

    Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
    458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
    someone pulled out, and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled.
    Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a real loose fit
    in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of bottom rib,
    fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE brass cases. A press
    in tight fit gives good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit.

    Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
    bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
    With 250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4.

    For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are
    strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough finish paints.
    Usually need weight added for big bore use. But not too miuch..
    An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
    coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being
    too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and
    we hold them in, with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

    Ed Hubel

  9. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.
    If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide
    next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

    I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
    extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
    one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
    than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
    on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

    Ed Hubel

  10. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
    and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
    or wide hollowpoint. .

    Here is pic of a Enfield with a jeweled and polished bolt, going
    to be 585HE. In the back, Bolt jeweling and polishing done by the
    great craftsmen, Bob Snapp, years ago.

    Picture comparing unfired and fired cases showing our tough cases
    One on the left fired with 650gr at 2400 and base above belt
    didn't hardly expand, Sized the top and reloaded/shot again.
    And AHC will make guns now with our 585HE for any wanting
    super top quality guns.They have some cases to give to guys
    as a sample to show guys the case. Ed

    Ed Hubel

  11. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Brinton, MI
    Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
    Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
    set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
    size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
    shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
    off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
    to our 585HE the strongest yet.
    The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
    eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
    cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
    577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
    then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
    and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
    of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
    diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
    and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
    and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
    was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
    over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.
    Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
    24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
    reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
    stamp the caseheads 24 ga.
    For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
    the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
    reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
    The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
    about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
    We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
    with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.
    Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
    break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
    goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
    Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
    to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
    energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
    gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
    actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
    So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
    .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.
    Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
    and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
    Ed Hubel

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