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Discussion Starter #1
Yesterday was the first ever 1,000 yard match at one of my two home ranges (Bayou Rifles). The sky was cloudy, impending rain, temp was cool - 54 +/- and the wind nasty at 10 - 18 mph switching from our 12 O'Clock to 2 O'clock. Truly brutal conditions if you were shooting a .308. Topo-Sniper showed up with his brother-in-law to watch the exhibition

Thank god I decided to bail shooting under these conditions. I currently get humbled enough shooting 600 yards in windy conditions. However, I can report that we have at least 30 truly gifted shooters in the Houston area. They had a large scope set up for watching trace (visible 100% of the time in this particular scope - 100mm objective lens). The wonderful thing about the big scope was you could flollow the trace and lateral drift, it looked like the shooters were throwing a huge curve ball down range. One guy on the first relay shot 197 out of 200 for his first 20 shots, including 7 X (he was shooting 6.5x284 with a 30" barrel and Sierra 142 SKM at roughly 3,000 fps). The match was 60 shots, but I bailed early to get out of the wind.

To show the extent and effect of the wind drift, most shooters were shooting a minimum of 6.0 to 8.0 MOA of wind (60 to 80 inches of lateral drift at 1,000 yards). If you missed a wind shift, you were not going to be on paper. The great majority of teh shooters were shooting open sights, several had AR-15s with 22 inch match barrels, and a few had M1A1 or M14s. I don't care how old you are, just hitting paper under those conditions with open sights is good shooting.

JeffVN
 

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Hey Jeff, haven't seen you at ASC anymore....I can see why :wink: That is something else Jeff :lol: . How do you like BRC thus far? Good, bad likes, dislikes? How does the facility hold up against ASC?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Actually I've been at ASC almost every weekend, you need to come down ot the longer rifle range more than once in a blue moon..

topo-Sniper and I have also been shooting the 600 during the week (generally on a tuesday or thursday), to avoid the crowds of bush-killers that show up just before the opening of deer season.

My ASC membership expires on March 1st 2005, or something like that. I'll continue to shoot at ASC until Bayou Rifles finalizes their long range use (600 to 1,000) schedule (if you are shooting on the 600-1,000 - you cannot shoot the 200 and 300). Once they nail that down, and assuming its acceptable to me, I'll go there not ASC. Before that happens, I'm up for a shooting visit to Bayou (unlimited guests) for you, Topo, Bobby, etc. I figure we will start at the 600 to get our feet wet, jump back to the 800 to develop some confidence then on to 1,000. If we have enough guys we could split into two groups and have someone pull targets for us. If not, or people don't want to do that, we can try to figure impact watching trace (works most times, but when the mirage is nasty it is truly problematic, especailly at 800 and 1,000.)

JeffVN

JeffVN
 

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I've been at the 600, I don't know what your talking about Jeff :roll: . I should have known that you would have been down there and not at 200 or 300. :D I really would love to go to BRC with you guys but theres only one issue. I don't think my scope will lend itself well enough for 800-1000yds. Well I can use it but, what do you suggest the minimum magnification for that range be?

I'm looking to purchase a scope with a bit higher magnification, if nothing else. Something quick but that works like a Leupold Mark 4. Either the 16X40mm LRT M1 or 4.5-14X50mm. The 6.5-20X50mm seems attractive as well but I don't know if I want or need 20X. What do you suggest Jeff.

Either way, I'm still very interested and would be willing to pull targets for you guys in case I don't have my scope in time and you guys all decide to go saaaaayyy......tomorrow. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Tomorrow is not in the cards, unless we want to shoot in medium to high winds and rain (not high on my wish list). Take a long hard look at some of the optics threads on the forum, and more specifically at Mel's discussion of the various sniper scopes that he has tested. You may be able to paint him into a corner and get him to make a single recommendation. (I doubt it as he has the fast and shifty look about him in his pictures :D ) Besides it really is a personal choice when it comes to brand loyalty.

When I did the sniper thing, we used a 3-9x Redfield acu-range rangfinding scope and worked out beyond 1,000 yards with our M40A1s. Current USMC snipers use a fixed 10X scope for 99% of their work - which include work out to and beyond 1,000 yards. Some will tell you that anything beyond 14X is wasted magnification and only increases the weight of the scope. I'm an old fart and my eyes are not so good. So, I prefer more magnification than 10 or 14X. I'm strongly in favor of 20-26X in a variable format.

My Swarovski scope is a 6-24x with the TDS-4 reticle.

My US Optics SN-3 is 3.8-22X with the MOA Scale reticle.

The perfect scope for me and one that I may be getting in February after the 2005 SHOT Show is a newly configured US Optics SN-3 with magnification of 6-30x and a 44mm objective lens, with a lit newly configured MOA Scale reticle that I posted on this site a while ago.

I'm looking to sell the Swarovski, so if you want to look through it you can have at it next time I'm at the range. The only potential downside to this scope is it lacks a ranging reticle. It has a ranging aspect, but not a pure mil-dot or other ranging capability.

JeffVN
 

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how much!?!?!?! Id give my left um..... arm. yeah... thats it..... for a swarovski. Ive had a love affair with those scopes ever since a very rich man let me shoot his ed brown which wore one.
 

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(I doubt it as he has the fast and shifty look about him in his pictures )
Am I really that bad? :?

Optics are a lot like high quality rifles... once you get above a certain threshold, they are all excellent and it does become personal preference. But, the distinguishing features are more decernable than on rifles. The US Optics scopes are excellent, but I "personally" do not like the physical size and shape of them. But that does not mean they are not equal to, if not better than Leupold Mk4's. I DO indeed like their USMC 10x and would love to have one, but do not feel its twice as good as a leupold Mk4 10x (as the price would indicate). Nightforce is another of the very good, but LARGE scopes. I feel equal can be done with better engineering, rather than size. i.e. Pay extra for better glass rather than larger objective. To me 30mm tube over 1" is more valuable than 56mm over 40mm.

Anyway, I'm being shifty again.....
MEL
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Mel has hit the nail on the head, as I knew he would. In fact he has done so a bit more directly than I anticipated.

Much as I LOVE my US Optics, it is big, heavy, and expensive (Mel's correct go for the 44 mm objective lens not the 58mm). If you have cash to burn (I did when I got mine), they are worth a VERY strong look.

I've seen two Nightforce go down, for whatever reason, so I tend to steer clear of them as a brand, but others swear by them. Leupold is the standard by which people compare - that shold actually tell you something. For the $$ that is where I would spend my hard-earned cash, unless I got a US Optics (did I mention they are big, heavy and expensive). :D

Like I said before my tired old guy eyes prefer more magnification than what Mel's youg-guy eyes can make function. If its not at least 20X I'm not interested. But, I get variable because when the mirage is kicking butt, you've got to dial down the magnification (to about 15X or so) in order to see.

I can't really explain how the Swarovski ended up on my Patriot Arms (way too long a story). Lets just say the guy made me an offer I couldn't refuse and it cost me what I would have had to pay for the 8-25X Leupold I was looking at. Presto Swarovski glass.

JeffVN

Spade - If you are serious send me a pm with a reasonable offer and we'll take turkey (I have the original box, lens cover gizmo, info, even the embroidered patch that they send you to congratulate you for buying one).
 

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Jeffvn,

I was only kidding on going tomorrow :lol: . Well like I said I could go with my current scope but I'm definitely looking to get something variable but with a slightly higher max end. Perhaps not too high but we shall see. The Mark 4 4.5-14x50mm LR/T M1 seems to really hit a middleground and solid range even though I would prefer 40mm I don't mind 50mm.

I would be interested in your Swarovski, I don't believe I have seen it. However I do prefer to have mil dot and that might deter me from it. I would like to take a look at it, if you don't sell it by the time we find some decent weather for ASC.

As far as the MK4 are concerned. I am strongly considering the 10X40mm mil dot as well even though it is fixed. I'm just going to have to make a trip to some places and look through the scopes and do some research to see what apeals to me personally.

By the way Mel, :lol: , that was soo funny how you guys played off each other on that one. :lol: . As much as I have to agree with Jeff's statements, I do appreciate and repect your opinion. I would heavily weight your suggestions and advice due to your experience.
 

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In regards to nightforce, I would like to hear everyones "personal" experience with them. I have used them, but only for a brief evals, never long term use. They are clear, and seem solid (should be since they are so big).

The reason I ask is this: if people remember, nightforce originally was marketed as an affordable alternative, and I don't believe they really changed their production much, but they all of a sudden (a while ago) became a "premier" scope builder? I have heard more than once that they have not held up. So, good or bad, if you personally have used and owned a nightforce for a good period of time, we would all like to be informed.

thanks

MEL
 

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Jeffvn,
I am still in a bit of shock watching that guy (on lane 13 no less) shoot lights-out using an iron-sighted M1A, in those conditions. Heck, he appeared older than us, well, me anyway... :wink: Wish I had a little more time to hang and watch a while longer. One of the cool things was on the 10 minute ride back to my house, Mark was commenting on the shooter's skill, then confessed he has NEVER fired a gun in his life. You know it was something if even Mark realized what he was watching.

Lets talk tomorrow and plan the next shoot, I'm ready to put the hammer down after watching with my hands in my pockets Sunday!

SpEcTeR, on those Leupolds, look at the 6.5-20x50 LR/T. Again personal preference, but for basically the same money you get a little more magnification, and the scope body is more proportional or something.

TOPO
 

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Thanks Topo, I am considering that model as well. I'll just have to see whats out there and try out whatever I can. Its actually pretty exciting shopping for glass. :D
 

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My personal experience and opinion on my NXS 3.5-15x50 is that it feels incredibly rugged. I always feel like I'm gonna fudge up high tech and expensive gear - but I honestly don't feel that way with the NXS. I forked out about 1900USD for it - but take note - that was here, in Norway, the tax-collector's paradise. Sure, for that kind of money I could've gotten a Swarowski, Zeiss or almost a S&B PM/II..or something...but I didn't.

The optics are in my opinion very good. Not perfect. A tad blurry around the edge - and it's no Hensoldt :| , but all in all I feel it's a fairly good scope for the money IF you can deal with the size. And size isn't a problem for me as I'm no pro and will only shoot from prone at the range and not drag the thing around in the bush.

My next scope will be a S&B PM/II 10x42, though.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Mel

I can't speak for BadShot, but I know his experience was and is not a very positive one. :shock:

JeffVN

"Shifty" was a bad word choice on my part (too much of a negative connotation) - how about "politically astute" - as in not going to say anything bad about one scope versus another scope.
 
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