[JetJockey]

Howdy all, I've been looking for a bbl rifle for awhile now and I think I've got a good varmint/target/hunting project. The first criteria was that the rifle be relatively light and portable. Distance-wise I wanted an effective range of at least 600-800 yards with the occasional challenge of a 1000 yard shot.

Early on I decided that .308 would be the caliber, but the big variable was barrel length. All the research I've done seems to indicate that a 20" barrel is long enough to get the job done. The choice then was between a Remington 700 LTR and the Savage 10FP-LE1. The LTR is more money and has a nice stock. The Savage has the AccuTrigger and a reputation for excellent accuracy, but everyone says the factory stocks are terrible.

I hope I've found a good compromise and I'd like some opinions on what I'm planning to do. I really like the McMillan stock on the 10FP-LE2B, but I don't want a 26" barell to lug around. So I'm thinking about buying the 10FP-LE2B ($739 at SportingArms.com) and have the barell cut down to 20" ($35 at Ahlman's.com). That way I get a high quality stock, 20" barell and the AccuTrigger. I also want to have them perform general accurizing, but I'm not sure what Savage's usually need. Some recent posts I've read about the LE2B lead me to believe that there's a good chance it might need some tweaking.

So I have a few questions...

-Will the 10FP-LE2B be balanced weird, stock heavy, if the barrel is cut down to 20"?

-What are the normal, recommended gunsmithing services available to "Accurize" a rifle?

-Are the 10FP-LE1 factory stocks really that bad?

-Is Cryo treating the barrel and receiver worth the money?

-Is the factory pillar bedding any good?

-Can it be glass-bedded as well as pillar-bedded?

-Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

 

[Scharfschütze]

Max effective range for the .308 is 700 yards. The reason for that is the bullet is not heavy enough, or traveling fast enough at that range to carry a stable trajectory. The shorter the barrel, the less the muzzle velocity. That will shorten the effective range further.
If you truly want to shoot a minimum of 600yds, go with the 300 win mag.

ss

 

[Jeffvn]

The .308 is fine for the yarage that you are talking about.

The 20" barrel is problematic for anything more than periodic use at 1,000 (assuming you are handloading your ammo) - most people who reload for their LTR length rifles run into pressure problems at anything over 2,600 fps - the bare minimum needed for consistent 1,000 yard. If you can cut it to 22", you'll give yourself a fairly signicant velocity jump (between 40 and 80 fps faster with the same ammo) and enure your 1,000 stability for target use.

Will the rifle be unbalanced (meaning stock heavy) if you have the stock cut down to 20". Yes - unless you have the stock weight reduced by additional inletting). I have a McMillan A-4, Neseka Tactical Action, and a 26" Hart Custom #7 taper barrel on it. It is still a bit stock heavy in this configuration - that stock is a heavy weight. My custom (pictured in the gallery section) weighs in at right at 16 pounds, including the US Optics SN-3 4-22x58 scope with 4" shade tube (of course the scope weighs in at probably 3 pounds).

Accurizing - generally -

glass bedding / either or both pillar and regular;
truing the action;
truing the bolt face;
lapping the lugs on the bolt;
new recessed 11 degree target crown (this should come with the barrel cut down).

There are more things that can be done, the most important of which is a new trigger - trigger job on existing trigger (cutting a match chamber and setting back the barrel), but this covers what I've heard is the general accurizing of a rifle.

Depending upon the cost of these items, you may want to consider simply having barrel replaced by PAtriot Arms, as they include ALL of the above truing and lapping items (except the bedding) as part of a $650.00 barrel job.

Most people (including me) would tell youto shoot teh rifle a bunch first, then see if it needs to have anything done to it after you have it properly broken it. you may find that you have one of the "good ones" and don't need to do much to it to make it shoot to the level that you want.

JeffVN

JeffVN

 

[mele]

Okay, .308 is fine to 800 yards. What Scharfschütze might have been referring to is the fact that the 168 match king is known to lose stability as it passes down through the transonic layer, usually around 700 yards. This was a problem because of a boat tail that was a bit to steep. This was corrected with the 175gr match king, which is better to use at long range.

Now, to answer your specific questions:

-Will the 10FP-LE2B be balanced weird, stock heavy, if the barrel is cut down to 20"?

Yes, it can be balanced stock heavy, but you can still use it and get used to it....

-What are the normal, recommended gunsmithing services available to "Accurize" a rifle?

What Jeffvn said

-Are the 10FP-LE1 factory stocks really that bad?

YES! But they do work if you have to. I had to do some major work on the forend to free float the barrel on one of them.... Shot like garbage until I did that.

-Is Cryo treating the barrel and receiver worth the money?

Debatable. For a factory rifle, I generally say no, its probably not worth it.

-Is the factory pillar bedding any good?

Better than non pillar bedding, but you should glass bed it when possible.

-Can it be glass-bedded as well as pillar-bedded?

Yep, that is the best way to do it, provided those factory pillars were done decent.

-Any other suggestions?

You could buy a cheaper 10FP-LE1 (with cheapo stock) and shoot it for a while, then purchase a McMillan stock of your choice at a later date and swap it out.

Hey, are you pilot?

MEL

 

[JetJockey]

Thanks for the info folks, that fine tuned my options some. I might end up going with a 10FP or 10FP-LE1 and send it to Fred at Sharp Shooters Supply. He can install a nice SSS stock and true the action, etc... This is a lot of fun working out just the right rifle. Mele- Yeah I am, working for an airline here in Dallas. You fly?

 

[mele]

Mele- Yeah I am, working for an airline here in Dallas. You fly?

Flying was my first love growing up. Did everything I could to be a military pilot... until my eyes went bad (from reading too many books) when I was a teenager. So I did sniping instead :wink: I'm a private pilot now, would love to build my own airplane someday when I have more time and money. Right now I just fly a beech musketeer that a friend of mine owns.

MEL

 

[Hectorvictorious]

Pilots? Here? Didn't see that one coming. My dad's a pilot and has always had at least one airplane as long as I can remember. I should be a pilot, as dad is a CFI and has had several of his own flight instruction services. He'd still be doing it if liability didn't cost so much. Do you know anything about Piper twin comanches? There is one up here at a decent price that Dad thinks would be fun to have.
He has two Taylorcrafts and an M-4 Maule(actually only one Taylor craft is the only thing that's flying as he's always either crashing or fixing the other two) but wants the speed of a twin.
My dream growing up(if it ever happens) has been to fly an F-15. But I also read too many books, and my mom has bad eyes, and now there isn't even a chance of that.

 

[spade]

Mel, just a couple of questions as i do not own, nor have i ever owned a savage rifle.

I thought that the LE2B was in a mcmillian stock. I cant see them being that bad as far as the stocks go. I also wonder why you said no to cryo treating a factory barrel.

Its relatively inexpensive and helps with cleaning so much that i cryo treat nearly all my barrels.

 

[JetJockey]

After runnung all the numbers, it still seems that the LE2B cut down to 20" is a great value for what you get. If I ordered a McMillan stock aftermarket wouldn't it be the same A3 that comes on the LE2B anyway? That plus a trip to SSS for truing the action and glass bedding should do the trick. I'll keep the accutrigger and set it to 2.0# to start, I can always lighten it up later if I want.

Mel...I have a feeling that this hobby is going to be as expensive as flying!

 

[mele]

I thought that the LE2B was in a mcmillian stock. I cant see them being that bad as far as the stocks go.

Yes, its the LE2B that is in a McMillan stock. These are typical McMillan stocks and are outstanding (like usual). They are night and day superior to the cheap Savage stocks. These stocks are not glass bedded though.

[qoute]I also wonder why you said no to cryo treating a factory barrel. Its relatively inexpensive and helps with cleaning so much that i cryo treat nearly all my barrels.[/quote]

The reason I say this is because the only thing that seems to be proven by chryo treating a barrel is a little better barrel life. I hadn't thought about the cleaning, but even then, it seems to be there are better uses of the money spent to chryo a barrel. Now, to some, that might not be the case. But chryo just isn't high on my list of priorities when working a rifle over.

If I ordered a McMillan stock aftermarket wouldn't it be the same A3 that comes on the LE2B anyway?

Yes, it would be. I suggested it as a means of allowing you to get aquainted with your rifle, get some experience so you could decide what exactly you might want in a rifle. Then you could use your new knowledge to pick the exact McMillan stock you wanted (wether A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, etc) plus you could pick the color and add options (like spacer system, etc). Just offering ideas.

MEL

PS - in terms of the twin comanche, I flew in one once, very fast, and nice flying planes. They do not have much room for lots of passenger and gear though, just depends on your mission.

 

[glazer1972]

The Le-2b comes with an A2 not an A3. They look similar but the A3 is a lighter stock.

 

[JetJockey]

After all the research I decided on the 10FP-LE2B. It looks great out of the box except for one flaw. There were tool marks on the outside of the crown. Is this normal for Savages? The McMillian stock is very nice, but I'm not sure if I'm going to cut the barrel down. I'm going to shoot it and pack it around in the woods a few times before I decide to cut it to 20-24".

Here's my set-up:

Mueller 4-16x50 Tactical Illum. Mildot Scope
http://www.muelleroptics.com/4-16x50IGR-Mil-Dot.htm

TPS Rings and 20MOA Base, both 7075 Alloy
http://www.tacticalprecision.com/index.htm

Harris Ultralight Bipod HBLMS Series, 9-13"
http://www.riflescopes.com/products/HBL ... series.htm

Eagle Industries Stock Pack-Rifle, Olive Drab (350001)
http://www.eagleindustries.com/mainprod.asp?scv=0

TIS Rifle Sling Model M24, Olive Drab
http://www.tacticalintervention.com/mod ... itary.html

I'll try to get some pictures soon, thanks for all the imput!

 

[Crazdgunman]

Jet, I'd seriously reconsider that scope...where did you find that anyway?

(I'm a pilot too, by the way. I fly GA aircraft, and some experimentals.)

 

[mele]

alright! Another pilot! That makes 5 or 6 of us on the boards.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but what experimentals do you fly?

MEL

 

[Crazdgunman]

I used to own a CGS Hawk two-place that built myself, and I have some time in another two-place "fat-ultralight", the Challenger II.

RV-6's rock too!

I like GA aircraft just fine for getting someplace fast...but "low and slow" feels a lot more like really flying!

 

[mele]

How'd you like the challenger II? My dad and I have been eyeing those thinking it might be out ticket for affordable and fun flying.... I'm a local hopper, with 4 kids and a wife, we are not able to afford to fly anything that will take the whole family on a trip...

MEL

 

[Crazdgunman]

Sad story about that Challenger II.

My buddy, who was a certified A&P, built her. I flew it, and she seemed ok, but it certainly did have a problem with yaw occilating back and forth in a lazy fashion. I was slowly dancing in the rudder to keep her nosed into the relative wind, but it became bothersome. My buddy said, "Ah, ya get used to it!". I later read that it was a common Challenger trait and that they had a retro-fit stabilizer fin kit (like on float-planes) to correct the issue.

The Challenger has a solid, un-suspended under-carriage that makes landings feel like you are flying a shopping cart. Aftermarket undercarrige suspension kits were just getting popular when I last flew her.

Anyway, my buddy was training this student when a wing lift-strut broke. They pin-wheeled to their deaths from about 3000 feet AGL. When I flew it, I noticed that he had the BRS (rocket-assited parachute) system "T"- handle above the front seat position. I suspect that the student froze and didn't hear my friend yelling at him to "pull the handle". He couldn't reach it himself from the rear seat.

Anyway, I haven't heard of any other similar pattern Challenger problems, and the FAA didn't do an investigation because it didn't have an N-number.

 

[mele]

Hum, thanks for the info....

MEL