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Discussion Starter #281
The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.


One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.


They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.


We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.


But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..


For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.


Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #282
Sorry to be away so long. Health and money problems.
Here is how the top of the singlestack magazine looks that we
made to use in Enfields and other bolt actions. The lips that hold the
cases are springy, and we can load it from the top. The inside of action
below feed rails are relieved a little and that allows feed lips to
move and work ok. This system would work on a larger scale for
singlestack 12ga, etc, using brass cases like in Savage 210.





Here are couple 24ga FHs break actions, a CBC with monoblocked
585 barrel in it, and a guys NEF he had a 585 barrel monoblocked in.
The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga, and 585 Minie Bullets
are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit.










Another matter---It is humbling for me to ask for help when
I ask guys on the net for help at times.But I really am in a bind.


That is truth, Our small income we had from our farms truck garden
business is no more, as my my knees are shot and can't hardly
walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition
got so bad she can't work.. So we finally had to quit that,
but were and are in debt. We need little extra money to try
to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities.


Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums
and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and
debt. Like 10-20 or so bucks each put into our paypal account as gifts.
And if you want to mail it, contact me to get you
my mailing address. The Paypal email is [email protected]


Best Regards- Ed


PS-- We really need help. Not astronomical amounts, but fairly fast.
Just a little from each to help. A quick boost so to speak.
We never made anything on the 12ga FH, 585, etc, work and
research and still don't.Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #283
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.





Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.







And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.


There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..


Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
And guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy, slow powder, slug loads,
even though not having IMR 4759....Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #284
Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,


Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around





Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.








The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.


About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #285
Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed







About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..


In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.







Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #286
A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.


Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.





Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..





Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF







On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.


So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #287
Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.







Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..




Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #288
Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.





The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.


Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.


We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.







Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed





Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #289
We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,







Here is folder shotgun, the guys set up as 24ga FH.
Shoots nice, looks nice, it a more expensive break action,
compared to many others.







Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.







Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..







Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc, with
variety of bullets..Can get energy like regular elephant guns..Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #290
Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.





Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases





Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle, mounted it on the bolt
further back, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Also puts handle back where it is easier to grab.
Needs, more shaping, polishing, blueing, scope rail added.


 

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Discussion Starter #291
There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.


Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.







Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #292
Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver


wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.


Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.











Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.


It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,


by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a


Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported


the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.











That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The


2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,


from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.


He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..


Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED




 

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Discussion Starter #293
Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with


Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell cases done.


Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.


Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email -----


[email protected] ......










Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal Cartridge and Mitchell Fitzpatrick's win.......


.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.


Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,


Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms


muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make


these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..




Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,


a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.


The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid performed great, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).











Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.


The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed




 

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Discussion Starter #294
Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan


Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.







Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering


for our case as it came from production line,.







I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.


We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.


Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted


a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and


handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,









Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat


375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed




 

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Discussion Starter #295
Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.




Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,







We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,


Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.


I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.


When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.


So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,


Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,


After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.


These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.


OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.


All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed




 

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Discussion Starter #296
Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in


Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture














Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that


are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind


from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on


another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,


We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with


lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,


Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed


to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are


at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #297
Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE


they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from


ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be


over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..









Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.


Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.







Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.


So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.







Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,


test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.


When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys


Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,


Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for


our bigger case .Ed


 

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Discussion Starter #298
Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.







Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases,
2 on left necked, 2 on right formed in hydro die after necking..





Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.


416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.





Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..









Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..


Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #299
Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..





Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.





Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..







Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.


Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #300
The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....




The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,


has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,


on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..







More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case
proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........
and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.


 
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