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Discussion Starter #1
i am fairly new to calibers of rifles. but i am looking into buying a very good quality of rifle, one that i am going to use for a few years maybe. i wondering what would be the caliber that snipers ( preferably police/swat not into military) would prefer? 223 or 308? and i know this might end up with a lot of replies but what would be a good quality rifle? under 1000. thanks for your replies


I dont check this very often so my email is : [email protected] if you have any knowledge about this please answer. thanks
 

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If I were new to shooting, as you obviously are due to your limited knowledge of rifles and thier calibres. I would start with a quality .22lr such as a CZ or Ruger blolt action and scope it out with a Leupold VX1 3-9X40.

The reason for this is the .22lr is accurate ammo is cheap so you can practice heaps. Also it is softer on a new shooter ie noise, recoil etc ...99.9%of shooters started here.

I suggest joining a club or shoot with a more experienced person. This will give you an opportunity to learn proper handling/safety protocol and shooting skils. Also this will give you the oportunity to interact with other makes, models and calibers of firearms.

I hope this helps

Regards

Mulga :D
 

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lots of good choices
a Remington 700P would be my choice, i own one in .308, its a great rifle, very accurate and dependable, good stock etc

as for the caliber you gotta ask yourself what kind of shooting you will be doing

.223:
varmint and small game hunting
target shooting at close range (100-200y)

.308:
big game hunting
target shooting at longer distances (out to 1000y or further if your upto the challenge)

you could start off with a bolt action or semi-auto .22 LR for the reasons Mulga mentioned, i would agree with that as your first rifle, even if it isnt your last rifle
the scope choice is good too.. i have a VX-1 and it works well

if you are going to be hunting/target at close range i'd reccomend you get a Ruger 10/22 or other .22 LR rifle and a 'sniper rifle' you want to use for hunting you can have the rifle you want and the ability to shoot ammo cheaply
 

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Discussion Starter #5
k, thanks for all the help guys, i clicked on the link and read out the 223 and 308. but i read up on the 308 for the law enforcement and it said to remember the impact that the 308 will give. would anyone here know how far police snipers/swat snipers actually shoot in situations? i already know that 100-200 yards is 223 range but would 308 be overdoing it in these areas? sorry for all the questions, thanks for the replies.
 

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Well that sort of depends on how the 308 is loaded. If its a hot load it will deffinately have a good deal of penetration, which isnt always what you want in an LE situation.

I know alot of LE snipers are using the .243 because its a great middle of the road cartridge. Good range(300-500 yards) with good stopping power and managable recoil and penetration.

According to the study done by the FBI (i believe) the average distance for a law enforcement sniper is 71 yards. They train for distances out to 300 though and even farther.
 

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We have zeros to 400yds, but most time our shots would be 100 or less. In practical terms, most times, my 50 and 100yd zero is about 1/4inch from being the same. The 25yd is about 1-2 inches low from 100. I keep my dope sheet inside my scope cap for quick access. I am going to be testing a lot of ammo types very soon to include SP, BTHP, TAP, and NBT, FMJ, and Accutip. The test will include group size, and auto glass penetration at varying angles and setbacks. It is all factory ammo so I will get all the info up here as soon as possible after the test.
 

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mlammers said:
We have zeros to 400yds, but most time our shots would be 100 or less. In practical terms, most times, my 50 and 100yd zero is about 1/4inch from being the same..
As an LEO, are you required to shoot the target in a specific place, such as the base of the spinal column, or is it your experience/training that a shot COM will work, as well?

Scatch Maroo
 

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for police I would choose a 223 or 22-250. The 250 will give you more penetration to a point and then explode for the most part.
 

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Scratch, Sorry I did not respond, I must have missed this question. When possible and if at all possible we try to hit the T-Zone eyes and nose to just below the base of nose. I will try to scan a copy of the two targets we qualify on, they are the FBI targets, and are shot at 100yds. We also train for center of mass shots on movers, and from improvised positions, such as rollover prone, sitting, buddy shots of the shoulder of another officer, sudden presentations, ambush of sniper etc.

Our instructors are Military Spec Ops and recon trained, and work hard to keep us on our toes.
 

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sniperdog-alpha1 said:
for police I would choose a 223 or 22-250. The 250 will give you more penetration to a point and then explode for the most part.
Not I.

The .223 has documented cases of failure to incapacitate with well placed shots. Penetration and wound channel are suspect.

The .22-250 is generally only loaded with light 55 gr bullets (some 60's). These super fast light projectiles do not penetrate well. Now, I do think there is some potential for some 69 or 77gr .22-250 loads for medium range, but just about all .22-250 rifles have 1:14 twist barrels... that will not cut it for heavy weight bullets.

MEL
 

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With .22 caliber rounds I really understand why police shooters go for the "T zone" that Mlammers described. Otherwise it probably really could go straight through someone and not knock him down. Like the guys you see with an X-ray of a 13 inch rambo knife in his skull, who was still able to walk and talk, and wasn't even sure what had happened to him.

I know Mel likes his .243, and thats a better choice. I guess the next step up would be .260 remington.
 

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Muzzleblast said:
I know Mel likes his .243, and thats a better choice. I guess the next step up would be .260 remington.
Yes, I like both of those rounds for law enforcement. But the .308 reigns supreme. I would say 90%+ of the law enforcement sharpshooters out there use .308. And for good reason, it does what it needs to, is accurate, and is proven.

MEL
 

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heh, I guess a critical situation needing a police sniper isn't where you want to "think outside the box" as they say
 

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Who wants to be the first guy to go to court (and all shootings for Police are heard by Grand juries) with a round no one else uses? That is the reason my 270 M700 became a 308 M700. Per my sniper instructor (and he has been there and done that) anywhere in the head, base of nose up to the eye brows, with a 308, and the overpressure gurantees instant incapacitation, that is why we shoot the T zone.
 

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Next question... " what is better... 22LR or or .50 BMG " :roll:
 

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I still say the 22-250, it has the same size bullet as the 223 but with more ass behind it. It goes in and explodes, think of prairie dogs and what a 22-250 does to them and imagine that inside a human body. Yeah that will drop them, and with police snipers being so close to there targets I don't think that a 308 will have enough expansion to not exit the body and possibly injure a innocent human being. I could be wrong on this and please tell me if you disagree, but I think a bullet that enters and then basically explodes is better than one that hardly expands and goes all the way through and then some in a urban environment. sniperdog
 

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Except bullets have to travel through obsticles at times, glass certainly, and heavy clothing on shots that are not on the head. It may not penetrate enough on a chest shot to incapacitate the subject. In fact, on a front/down head shot, it may not penetrate deep enough to get the spinal column/stem.

It just does not offer you much flexibility. But the transfer of the full energy is good.

MEL
 

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Some of the newer 308 rounds do transfer almost all of the energy to the target, and may not exit even on short(25yd-50yd) head shots. The Hornady Urban TAP ammo is just for this, I am going to test the 110 soon, and I have shot the 168 on a van for practice. The 110 shooting into Geletin fragments down to 19grains in the space of about 10 inches I think. I have data here somewhere I will try to find it. A Police sniper shoot has taken place where a head shot was taken from very short range(37yds I think) using the 110 and it did not exit the head. One of my CPD buddies has the info on this one, I will check on it. The 308 is a very flexible caliber that can be loaded many ways to do many things, maybe that is why it is so popular.
 

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If were talkin .223 / 5.56X45mm NATO / US Military ammo... check out my web page http://www.geocities.com/expert_riflema ... vs223.html

There are several pages with detailed info on it including ballistics testing. Each subject is seperated on the page by a black line that goes across the screen... so you can tell where each subject starts and stops. Once you get to the bottom of each page there is a next page button.
 
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