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Discussion Starter #1
Randy and I just finished a two day 350 round position course, using my Patriot with the scope mounted on top. Shooting positions with a cuff-sling absolutely kicked me a$$, especially the offhand - with a 13 pound rifle. Did great at 600 prone where I finally said hell with it and used the bipod.

Topo outshot me on the 600 reduced to 100 (it was raining like crazy and we took shelter under the roof at Bayou's 100 yard bench range). 200 w/ 18X or something like that to my 198 18X. He did the reloading portion of the class using M118LR and his groups closed up dramatically after he got the seating depth portion of the class down. Good for him, but bad for my ability to beat him. :shock:

We had some gusty winds yesterday at the 600, and I had a great first 20 shot string 14X and 3 10s Randy kicked butt the second string with 10 or 11X, to my 5 X, 9 10 second string. (Most of my 10s were 3 oclock and just outside the X ring - missed the wind drop off by and inch and missed the X :twisted:). Good job for Randy it was raining constaqntly and its tough to keep your focus when you are laying in a puddle and looking at a wind-blown 600 yard range with rain drops gathering on your lenses. It was a good event for both of us, but I can tell you for me that bipod never looked so good as when I broke mine out at 600.

I think its a great shooting experience, but you need to know a LOT about the classe before you plunk down any kind of $$$ for a long course like that. You could find yourself sitting in a room dry firing at a barrel practicing positions for 1/3 or it (isn't that right Randy)

Don't let anyone tell you that the .308 is a sissy with no recoil. I put 225 through my Patriot Saturday and it stomped me into the dirt. We were supposed to shoot the same amount on Sunday, but the weather did not cooperate.

I would do it again, but modify some of the positions to be a bit more tactical in anture (I talked with Jim after and he siad that would be fine).

The Class was taught by Master Sgt Jim owens former memeber and coach of the USMC 1,000 shooting team.

[/url]http://www.jarheadtop.com/ There was not as much individual ...of 20 shots) coming this weekend. :D JeffVN
 

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Thanks for the summary of the course! Sounds like it was a good class to go through. Let us know the results of the 1000y comp.... :D

MEL
 

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Discussion Starter #4
What I really liked about it was that in talking with Jim, he was very adaptable to having tactical guys like Randy and I join his class.

If we wanted to shoot off the bipod the entire time he would have never blinked. (It would ahve been damn boreing if that was all we had done) I tried the position stuff, knowing that in the real world you never get to choose your support and it may be just your hands and body - like offhand, sitting or prone. That does not mean I didn't bitch and moan or groan like a sissy when my hands were damn sore from the sling and I refused to put on the shooting glove (not like you are going to have one sitting in your hidy hole.

If he gives another class in my area, I'll go again. This time I'll bring a bunch of handloaded candy 155 to go easy on my shoulder the first day and then break out the real ammo for the 600. I would also bring a bunch of different rests to work from. Like a log, pack, and other things of different heights.

I'm testing Jim out to see if he might have an interest in teaching a 600 yard and beyond class. Where wind separates the mice from the he-men. :D :D Even if you shoot only NRA targets, from that distance you learn something every time you pull the trigger.

JeffVN
 

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Jeffvn is correct as usual; a great time was had this weekend shooting and learning from a master like Jim Owens. Granted his orientation is geared more towards service rifle high-power, however the techniques taught and tried in offhand, sitting and even shooting with our eyes closed really drove home some interesting aspects of marksmanship.

I have wanted to get into reloading (and removing Jeffvn's boot from my 3rd point of contact), so I got started for this class just extending the bullets from out-of-the box M118LR and re-seating them based on my chamber OAL. Just this little tweak easily reduced my groups 30% (last event I shot 198-9X at 600 yards, in the rain 8) ). I may have beat Jeffvn by one point that event, but the prior one he had to have gotten ~15x, it was scary seeing a Marine shoot that good.... :D

Bottom line, best $200 bucks I ever spent.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Randy take your due, you kicked my butt the last round. You found that X-ring zone that I got into the first round at 600.

I'm sitting here looking at my seriously wrinkled databook (from all the rain) and I was nowhere near 198 (I had a 193 w/ 6X, 9 10s - all at 3 O'clock, 4 9s and a SKANKY 7 at 3 O'clock :shock: - where the hell did that come from - I think I'll blame the ammo, wind, rain, certainly not the shooter. :D

JeffVN

But, (there is always a but isn't there) :D , I think I may have snuck past you on the total of the two strings. :D (I had a combined 387 20X - include one 7 on each string :twisted: )

But (there is that word again), I think you may have taken the overall champion trophy when you combine all 4 600 yard strings together, including the 100 yard reduced shots. I gotta find that sheet, but I recall it as a 198 w/ 18X - I know you had a 200 w/ 19X or something like that -Nice shooting let me just say)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Mel

I can start this as a new thread if you like, but nobody is talking on this thread so I thought this shooting thread was as good as any.

I'm seriously itching to take a dedicated long-range class from someone who can shoot and knows how to impart that knowledge to others. You have credibility wiith me, as you have shown that you habe both the balls and the brains to say when you don't know the answer to a question. Some "instructors" are not so bright (and I have enough sunshine in my ear to last a lifetime).

Talk to me about your proposal for teaching a 600 and beyond class......

JeffVN
 

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Well, I'm willing to talk a little....

I'm heading up to take a look at a cabin this weekend for possible use for the summer SC get together. I'm also looking at it to possibly use for instruction.

I am also working on another possibility for providing instruction as part of a team in another state.

What I would like to hear from others is what you, as paying students, seek the most, how much would be a good price, how long is "just right" in terms of the number of days, and optimal number of students.

I have my ideas, would like to hear everyone elses.

MEL
 

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Discussion Starter #10
hmmmmmm where to start.

Here it comes - in a total stream of consiousness folw methodology.

For me, the perfect precision long-range shooting school will last anywhere from 3 to 5 days. The school will provide room and board - or be close enough to a hotel so I can commute.

The school will understand that the vast majority of shooters cannot stayed truly focused and able to concentrate after more than 100 to 125 rounds in a single day for even a .308. NO BS. - I'm serious. Go to the range and try putting the focus machine into gear more than 100 to 125 times a day - its darn near impossible (at least for me) to truly be locked in menatlly after aobut 100 to 125 during a single day.

I just did the Highpower thing and cranked 225 rounds on Saturday from the Patriot. No. 1 - I was damn sore. #2 - I stopped caring about much except number 1 after about round number 125. We shot right at 75 rounds on day two. No ten shot rapid fires, single shot.s and each one counted. I do love the dedicated follow-up shot and that should be part fo the program too. My focus was crisp and hard, I had it in the zone - that's when I'm truly getting something out of what I'm doing. The rest of the time its just shooting to me (cool, but not really a good training session). Enough on shooting volume.

I think there should be nearly 30% class time for the shooters to use their brain instead of just pulling the trigger all day. I'm not talking inside. You can hold a damn good wind class sitting on a bluff overlooking the range pointing at specific trees and the wind's effects on what is going on around you. My Gunny in Okinawa used to do that while we were taking breaks on the range. Pointing to the trees and how they moved - explaining how and why wind closer to the shooter has more effect on the bullet than the wind at the target 1,000 yards away.

Teach the craft of shooting and hitting what you are aiming at; beyond 600 yards the smallest of mistake is magnified to the point that you may just hit air. Miss a significant wind shift at 1,000 yards or misjudge the speed from that distance by more than 2 or 3 mph, and you WILL miss a target that is 24" wide and 36" tall. Take a shot at a human sized target (12" wide) and you need to be within 1 or 2 mph with a full value wind.

I believe that the class should be a small group, with no more than ten or 12. you need to be able to split them into two, four, and/or six person shooting teams. half to spot and coach and the other half to shoot. Everybody does everything. Swap targets, help each other with ranging and the spotting of targets.

When was the last time you are on a totaly foreign piece of dirt and ranged a target with your scope then took the shot and nailed it? Its been too darn long for me.

(I like the ideas of mini competitions between and among the teams during the day, with maybe a final shoot-off at the end). I mean someone has to clean up the place it might as well be the non-shooting guys. :D So who wins the competition - Should it be the best shooter, the most improved? hmm I'm just thinking out loud here.

I LOVE to shoot steel plates - that "CLANG" of instant feedback is just what I'm looking for - Not to mention you don't need to pull and paste them back up. I'm thinking about elevation changes, range estimation over elevation changes and cold bore and hot bore shots across elevation changes.

Although Sniper craft is important and critical to actually making a living at being a snipor (you don't live long without it), I want a class that is focused on marksmanship, with a different class on sniper craft like stalking, ghillies, whatnot. I'll even volunteer to be the guy you can stalk and shoot at (figuratively speaking of course - like we did in the school with the "sniper at your feet" calls to the SGT. with a pole in his hands).

That's a pretty decent start from an old guy like me. I'll have more to say when the others add some to my speach. Damn, I think I pulled a muscle in my finger with all this typing.

I got my asbestos suit on let the flames begin.

JeffVN
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I forgot to talk about cost. To be honest that is not really the biggest concern for me.

Is it worth $100 per day for shooting shool instruction - that is the real question. I figure it takes about $100 per day to cover room and board for each person - assuming you are not feeding them beans and weenies everyday.

I don't know if I say yes or no. It depends in part on who the instructors are, their experience and what they are going to do in the school. The location of the school is also important - at least to me. Shooting in the mountains is damn different than shooting in the East Texas Swamps.

Enough of this already. Somebody else needs to jump in here and save me from myself.

JeffVN
 

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In my perfect shooting school, as jeff said ; fieldcraft and other should be a separate class.

Id like to see a longer class, upwards to ten days, (my current job lets me be able to take such long vacations), shooting around 300 or so rounds per day.

I think it should be assumed that each person can pull the trigger, so an emphasis on wind and range should be given. Id like to be able to sleep there at the range, or as close as possible, with dinner provided. Im a youngin so ive got no problem sleeping on the floor with my ruck as a pillow for a week as long as ive got the oppertunity to pick the instructors brain for a while at night.

Id like to see a large amount of application of theory, instead of just class time.

Id like to see some mini competitions during the week, with the test at the end of the course being a single shot, taken in under 5 minutes at an unknown distance in unknown wind on a steel plate.

I love the idea of the steel plates, 8x8 inches. Even smaller mabye.
 

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I think Jeff really nailed the key points to a productive and efficient marksmanship class.

I personally would like to have more hands on expeience with unknown distance shots, ranging and measuting wind.

I think that going throught every motion of reading wind, temp, distance, elevation, ranging and actually shooting on foreign turf would prove very effective and give everyone incrediblly usuful experience for any arena. Hunting, Sniping, F-class or simply paper punching.

I would like to see a class that splits up the class into groups of no less than three in order to create a dynamic between the students and facilitate instruction throught more experienced students.

I would also like to undergo drills for follow up shots, quick series of shots and mil-dot hold shots for moving targets.

Room and board should be included with a nearby Hotel being the most desirable. Even thought I'm with Spade, I don't mind staying in an old cabin. I grew up in the desert next to the Rockies, and have camped in may places with critters running around on the floor all over the place.

The ideal time would be at least 3 days but 4 to 5 would be more desirable as I agree with Jeff after a certain amount of rounds I beigin to feel like a machine gun just jackhammering the targets. Plus my shoulder does start to talk to me after 160-200 consecutive rounds.

I'm glad our Montana meeting could turn into more than just a BBQ and SC guys shooting the SH*t.

8)
 

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Okay, so far so good.

One thing I do know for sure.... the initial courses will be purely marksmanship. No major fieldcraft.

Anyone else ready to comment? I didn't hear much else about cost.

What are people willing to pay for 3,5,7 day courses. Lodging provided, at least 1 meal provided. ?

MEL
 

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If we bring our own equipment, ammo and other stuff....... id say around 350-400 for a 5 day course sounds incredible... now if lodging is provided i could see paying 100-120 dollars a day.
 

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Throw in a couple chili dogs and you got yourself a deal. lol
 

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Sounds high to me, but if it included hotel Lodging, 3 meals a day and the class then maybe.

Oh yea and I gots to have a T - shirt! :lol: Thats why I'm going! 8)
 
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