[tylerw02]

Call a scope manufacturer and ask this question:

Take two scopes with identical features except the main tube diameter of one is 1" in diameter and the other is 30mm (1.181") in diameter.

Which will appear brighter to the eye when they are looked through?

This is so obvious James Brown could see it.

They manufacturer, if honest, will tell you the 30mm and the 1" both have the same erector tube and that the 30mm version is to give you more adjustment range within the 30mm main and there is not a difference in brightness.

Tell me, how does a 30mm tube provide a brighter image when it has the same erector tube in it?

 

[Ravenblack]

They manufacturer, if honest, will tell you the 30mm and the 1" both have the same erector tube and that the 30mm version is to give you more adjustment range within the 30mm main and there is not a difference in brightness.

Tell me, how does a 30mm tube provide a brighter image when it has the same erector tube in it?

As the soldier said to the bayonet maker..."Good point, well made."

 

[LongRifles]

Call a scope manufacturer and ask this question:

Take two scopes with identical features except the main tube diameter of one is 1" in diameter and the other is 30mm (1.181") in diameter.

Which will appear brighter to the eye when they are looked through?

This is so obvious James Brown could see it.

They manufacturer, if honest, will tell you the 30mm and the 1" both have the same erector tube and that the 30mm version is to give you more adjustment range within the 30mm main and there is not a difference in brightness.

Tell me, how does a 30mm tube provide a brighter image when it has the same erector tube in it?

So, by that argument does it mean that if we replaced both the 1" and 30mm lens with one that's say, a half inch in diameter it would still transmit the same amount of light?

 

[Ravenblack]

A scope is only as good as the sum of its parts...

 

[LongRifles]

A gross exaggeration to reinforce my point here.


Take a 3 foot diameter sewer pipe and build a scope out of it.

Now, replace only the guts with one inch lenses.

Which one is transmitting more light?

 

[Ravenblack]

I've just read through the last few.....and we're all saying the same thing....

The smallest "hole" in the scope is the determining factor.....be it a drain pipe with a .5" lens, or a 30mm tube with a 1" lens.

If you have a 50mm Ob, 30mm tube and 1" erector, it'll let through more light than a scope where any of those is reduced.

BUT....scope manufacturers know what is best optically (it is there job....), so it's really down to research and reviews to determine what is best for your purpose and budget....Who cares if it has somehow got 102% light gathering, if you can't afford it. Forget the sizes and theoretical results, look at the actual results.

 

[LongRifles]

I've just read through the last few.....and we're all saying the same thing....

The smallest "hole" in the scope is the determining factor.....be it a drain pipe with a .5" lens, or a 30mm tube with a 1" lens.

If you have a 50mm Ob, 30mm tube and 1" erector, it'll let through more light than a scope where any of those is reduced.

BUT....scope manufacturers know what is best optically (it is there job....), so it's really down to research and reviews to determine what is best for your purpose and budget....Who cares if it has somehow got 102% light gathering, if you can't afford it. Forget the sizes and theoretical results, look at the actual results.

Well, aren't we just the voice of reason and maturity. . .

Well spoken!

So what caliber have you decided on?

 

[Ravenblack]

Well, aren't we just the voice of reason and maturity. . .

Rasp!!! I know you are, but what am I :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[tylerw02]

Regarding 6.5 bullets.

Hornady is what I use.

Which Hornady? I bought some 140 SSTs to try on prairie dogs and possibly long-range coyotes.

 

[LongRifles]

I'm trying to remember, but I'm pretty sure it is the SST bullet.

Looks like a Nosler Ballistic tip. (Orange or red I think)

I can remember the load with no problems.

55 grains of 4831 SC
Norma case
Federal GM210 primer
.005" in the lands.

 

[tylerw02]

That one is pretty hot! That is the SST you describe. I've got a box I want to try. I usually use 51.0-53.5 gr of RL22 and Berger 140s or SMK 142s. I'm anxious to see how my rifle likes these SSTs.

 

[upstaterider2003]

My "real" deer gun is a 6.5-284.

regarding the quote "My "real" deer gun is a 6.5-284." ...

in your honest opinion is that a lethal deer gun at 1000 yards... and how much more economical and flexible is it regarding burning a barrel, reloading and finding components as well as bullet options...? what was your load data for that?

and.. do you aim at the deer face? :? or woukld you consider that a miss for another point of aim, like the spine...?

 

[tylerw02]

I shoot 6.5-284 and wouldn't want to take deer at that range (1,000 yards)with it. I'm using a stiff load of RL22 and 140 gr Berger VLDs, Norma brass, and Fed 215Ms.

My accuracy runs in the .3s (guesstimate of average, it shoots better than I do) through a 28" Shilen Select Match bbl, #7. I've never chronographed the load, but I'm 97 1/4 moa clicks up to zero at 1,000. That suggests I'm running a hair under 3,000 considering the .640 BC and how it slightly drops as the bullet slows.

The problem with shooting deer at that range is missing by a few inches doesn't yield in a clean kill. I try to limit my range to 600 yards as that is where the serious wind drift starts. It'll jump up to 1.7" per mph of crosswind at 600 from 1.1" at 500 according to the calculators. I've killed two deer over 500 yards and done quite a bit of varmint shoots, and I'd say that data is pretty accurate.

 

[115vld]

As for the 30mm vs the 1" tube, I have a David Tubb video that is purely about the breakdown of scopes, how they work, and the pros and cons of different objectives, lengths, powers ect. and he even says in it that the main tube has nothing to do with the amount of light that comes through. Just the objective. When the Zeiss rep came to the gun store I used to work at, I asked him this very question and he told me the only difference b/t the 30mm and the 1" is vertical and horizontal adjustment. The exit pupal diameter has to do with the objective and what power the scope is on. For example, if your scope has a 50mm objective and it is on 14 power, your EPD is going to be 3.5 and some change. If it were on 10 power, it would be 5 and so on. That is why the tube does not change EPD and light gathering.

Chase

 

[LongRifles]

Let it be plainly understood that I never once advocated the 6.5-284 as a 1000 yard "huntin-n-killin" cartridge.

I said it's my "real" deer gun. Real means its semi-practical to carry. My 23lb 34" barreled single shot 300-338 Lapua Magnum isn't.

As my first response to this thread stated, I advocate/recommend a big 30 and/or 338 caliber magnum for shooting critters at over half a mile.

Next:

Accuracy and shooting in the face. Yes, this is exactly where I wanted to shoot him. It was a spike buck and I'd never done it before.

It's gross and rather morbid, just as I thought it'd be.


The load data I use is already listed.

Understand that prior to doing this I had (and always do/will) taken the time and effort to plot this gun so that I know what my come ups are.

Software is great, but I think we can agree that knowing is the better option.

You gotta be on the wind too.


Scopes. I read an article once a long time ago where a "guy" who had "some sort of degree" in "optical stuff" sat down and mathematically showed the bigger tube channeled more light to the eye.

I know from looking through literally dozens of different premium grade optics over three years of relentless tunnel testing that the 30mm tubes offer me a brighter target.

That's what I know. So what David Tubb and Zeiss have to say doesn't mean much to me. I know what I see with my own two eyes.

David and I know each other also by the way. While his successes in competitive shooting and the gun industry cannot be argued, there are fundamental things about rifles that he and I don't agree on.

I think it best we just steer this back to what the thread was originally written about:

Killing critters at 1000 yards and what's the best ammo to do it with.

My vote is still a hot rod 300 or a boomer 338.

 

[upstaterider2003]

thanks for bringing it back...

.... on track.

I have been reading the replies to my question for a few days and actually had to go back to see what my question was..

I think 300 WM is where I am headed... 300 RUM seems a lot more expensive to re load. 308 is cheap and available but I know that as soon as I bring that in the field every great opportunity will be out side 600 yards mark...
The 300 WM will let me chase down White tail to 1000 if I see the right set up (wind, light etc etc all being considered)

I can reload for about half a 338 cost....

I can take it to ME or New Brunswick and take moose, or Bear with it inside 750....

i am still very willing and glad to hear about the best set ups and comments around this.. as I am now in search of the components to have this built... I am looking at sending actions to "spec ops" (.25 MOA guarantee) or HS precision... Shawn Carlock is known for the 338 edge... from what I can tell... but need to see what other guns he builds...

would love to keep a damn accurate 300 WM with proper scope to under $1800.... then I start buying the relaoding components. dies, loaders, powder primers,.. and set up shop....would prefer a more tactical style stock.

Looking at the Knoxx recoil system Axiom stock or a Butt Stock.. depending on what I end up with... (55% - 95% reduced recoil)

LAst question... I have a 7 year old Boy and 10 year old girl who both want to shoot. Santa brought a Red Ryder BB gun this year for each of them... i was thinking of the Trifecta as their first rifle to use with me at the range... can ayone direct me to where I can learn the best way to tecah a kid to shoot... knowing how and teaching are two very different things...

love the site.. thanks for your input...

 

[oneeyedmac]

I'm going to try balloons with my kids from 10 to 15 feet away to start with. If they hit it they will see an immediate reaction which they'll like.

For the rifle with your budget, do yourself a big favor and contact Mark Lammers at Losok Custom Arms. Right AFTER I picked up my rifle from him Friday and AFTER we settled up I told him I don't think he charges enough for what he sells. His guns have a 1/2 MOA guaruntee and he build with a 1/4 MOA guaruntee. Just give him a call before you buy.

A hint, my custom rifle with a Lothar/Walther barrel built on a Savage action with glass was LESS than an Remington 700 LTR with no glass. He can really build a rifle to fit most budgets and I know there is at least one member here who has a 300 WM and is very happy with it.

 

[LongRifles]

Personal opinion here:


I hate belted magnums.

How comes:

First and most important to me, I just don't like chambering the damn things. No particular reason, I just don't like it.

1. Unless your gun plumber spends the extra duckets on tooling, all belted magnums headspace off of the belt. This means a 300 HH magnum uses the same gauge as a 300WM or 300 WBY. I want to KNOW that my case lies in the chamber off the .400" shoulder datum and that its a qualified distance from there back to the cartridge.

Again, that's just me.

2. The brass gets more beat up when feeding/chambering.

3. Belts are pointless and do nothing (as the 300 RUM and 338 LM proves)

4. There are better case designs that fit in shorter actions.


Again. My opinion here, so take it for what its worth.


I say go 300 WSM. Now, that's provided that you have an action with a bolt that can be opened up to the BF diameter without too much trouble.

I've built a lot of these things. A lot means a sh_t load by the way. You stuff about 65 grains of Varget in it with a 168-180 grain bullet and it flat out gets it done.

Never shot one really far away, but I know guys who do and they like it.

Brass life is "ok". The Winchester stuff typically runs a bit soft. I believe Norma and La Poo Poo are making brass now though.



Might be worth the effort to look into it.

Good luck.

 

[Dillinger]

what about 300wsm vs 300wm if the wsm is in a long bolt and can be loaded much longer, the powder space can be increased. There is nothing wrong with the 300wm except that the 30-06 bolt frame is too short for loading long bc bullets, that's why the action in the long 300wsm is interesting. the short lock is a bit short for wsm