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To be honest, I was going to actually start answering things in order of the posts... but something became very clear; you guys want him to go 6.5mm. So be it... OP, do the new cool thing. Just don't do it too late when the next new cartridge comes out.

I don't need to sit here an spout out about myself. Personally, I'm not that type of person. I don't need to talk about 18 years of my shooting life, nor which instructors I've learned from. Instructor wise, wouldn't have much in this discussion, either... as I never paid anyone for long range rifle training (it's on my list, when I can put time/money aside for it). Definitely not an ex-military sniper or SEAL, as I had Type 1 diabetes... thus unable to enlist. However, that doesn't make me an internet commando, either.

In regards to calibers, I have experience with quite a few. .308/.30-06 up until recent years was predominantly irons and fixed 8x scopes. Personally, have not owned a 6.5mm Creedmoor, but have tried my cousin's out in PA. It is a nice rifle combination (I will likely pick one up when I can put money towards one... have things higher on the list), but still stand by my original post. I've read a lot into Cleckner's views on the subject, and agree with him on this very suggestion.

I am very familiar with 6.5mm as a bullet size (in a sense, slightly different diameter), as I'm into 6.5mm Carcano (and getting out of 6.5mm Japanese). I also like the historical value of certain cartridges.

I also don't need to say a few years ago that I was in a similar position as the OP... and put my money into .300 Win Mag. Was a great time... lost a lot on the gun when I actually moved over to .308. Why I recommended the book I did, as I wish it was out back when I started.

Great, you are making suggestions based on how many years in this style of shooting? Reloading? I'm making a suggestion knowing money is difficult to put up at certain times in life, and that shouldn't stop someone from shooting. Classes end early, and you want to run to the range... more likely to find some sort of .308 on a shelf than 6.5mm. Plus, don't have to look for a brand new rifle... find a used .308 that someone made the move over to 6.5mm. There are plenty of good deals to be found in .308, as people always tend to want the latest/greatest. Personally, I won't be selling my Remington .308 when I do acquire a 6.5mm.

OP... enjoy your new 6.5mm, since that is the decision the group made for you. Sorry I gave a view to a question you asked that didn't go with the "right." Hope you get plenty of range time. Best of luck in college.
I'm agreed with you 100%.
Start .308 if he want he can switch to new 6.5 creedmoor barrel in later.

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Wow, didn't mean to start any sort of arguments. But I am very appreciative of the advice-good advice is hard to come by.

1. I have looked at 223 but my concern was it wouldn't reach out as far as I would like.
2. I am looking for something to learn on.As everyone stated Im after a rifle to learn elevation and windage as well as the other tricks of the trade before moving up to longer ranges and bigger calibers. With that being said, I am fairly certain I won't sell the rifle-hence the research before buying.
3. Could anyone recommend a 6.5 rifle similar to the 700 SPS varmint? I have not been able to find one within the same price range with similar features-heavy barrel and free floated. EDIT: I have just found a Bergara B-14 Hunter within my range in 6.5. Anyone have experience with it?
4. While I am not looking for a hunting rifle, I would like a practical rifle. Something ammo isn't $40 a box and as rare as a boar hog with tits. I will begin looking around at ammo suppliers and see whats available around me.

Would I be wrong to assume that whichever caliber I choose wouldn't be a bad decision? I was dead set on 308 but now I'm on the fence.
You can't go wrong with Bergara ,owner of 4s.

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I'm agreed with you 100%.
Start .308 if he want he can switch to new 6.5 creedmoor barrel in later.
So you're an advocate of people wasting money on inferior things? The data has shown that the 6.5CM is better than 308 in every regard but energy, and at worst, equal in terms of energy until enough distance is applied. Choosing right in the first place is smart. Ignoring facts while choosing wrong with the intention of choosing right later, is stupid. Do you know how many people I've told to go 6.5CM who ignore me and went 308, have said "I wish I'd have listened to you" in the last year alone?

You can't go wrong with Bergara ,owner of 4s.
Says who? They've only been around for about a year.(seriously) So what experience do you have to proclaim them a safe investment for all?
 

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So you're an advocate of people wasting money on inferior things? The data has shown that the 6.5CM is better than 308 in every regard but energy, and at worst, equal in terms of energy until enough distance is applied. Choosing right in the first place is smart. Ignoring facts while choosing wrong with the intention of choosing right later, is stupid. Do you know how many people I've told to go 6.5CM who ignore me and went 308, have said "I wish I'd have listened to you" in the last year alone?

Says who? They've only been around for about a year.(seriously) So what experience do you have to proclaim them a safe investment for all?
I'm still learning everyday, once in 1983 I was a NRA distinguished Marksman,I have own few top customs 6.5 cm and sako,tikka tac a1...names of few too,and I love them all,but that my point of view. As I respect yours. brasses availability cheaper then 6.5cm and easy to find in the moms and pops shops in the country side.for hunting within under 400 with elk size animal,over 500 ,6.5cm did have better ballistic coefficient ,Thank you for your reply about the Bergara I own 2 BMP in 6.5,1x hmr in 6.5,1x lpr .308. I speak what I feel not try to compare to any. thank you again thank you again

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I speak what I feel not try to compare to any.
Advice must be compared to "all." You can do what you feel when it's your own decisions and your own money. Though advice given to others must be inclusive of all options present. Not feelings... but facts. Do you agree?
 

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Advice must be compared to "all." You can do what you feel when it's your own decisions and your own money. Though advice given to others must be inclusive of all options present. Not feelings... but facts. Do you agree?
Yes, but with 40es hand on experienced and involved firearms design, customs few guns my own and pentagon ,and I own 12 x 6.5 cm,few .308 too,not just owned one gun or two. To give opinions. wish I have a more time to shoot then used be. sorry no time to inclusive all options. Thank you.

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Yes, but with 40es hand on experienced and involved firearms design, customs few guns my own and pentagon ,and I own 12 x 6.5 cm,few .308 too,not just owned one gun or two. To give opinions. wish I have a more time to shoot then used be. sorry no time to inclusive all options. Thank you.

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What is your real name? With that kind of experience, it shouldn't be too hard for us to find out exactly what your real world experience looks like and why we should listen.
 

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I bought a 308 against the advice of Orkan. I wish 100x's over it was the 6.5 cm he recommended.

anyone want to buy a good shooting 308 barrel for a desert tech?
 

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I bought a 308 against the advice of Orkan. I wish 100x's over it was the 6.5 cm he recommended.

anyone want to buy a good shooting 308 barrel for a desert tech?
If I didn't already have one I'd entertain the idea. Got to admit, I like being able to hold 8.4 mils to get to a 1000yds with the 6.5CM versus 10.5 with the 308. Got to crank elevation for the 10.5.
 

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I am pretty sure you can afford an extra barrel.:p
If you only knew how I lived so that I can afford guns it would surprise you. Lol. My income is probably significantly lower than most here.

However...I do have a couple of other barrels in the works that will perform better than the 308.
 

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Hornady's numbers are tainted with marketing. 2840fps with a 168!?!? No wonder why I see customers/students with pressure problems when using hornady ammo.

We can play numbers all we want. I can give you numbers for a 30" 308 pushing 155's at 3000fps. Impressive. Yet that is not the discussion. All things being equal, the 6.5 creedmoor is better than 308 at basically everything.
Orkan,

I've read a lot of details on 6.5cm and .308 win. I've never shot a 6.5cm but I reload all the time for 308, 300win and 300 RUM.
Not to sound ignorant. My question is a lot of comparisons are done apples to oranges. 7mm-08 and 308, 6.5cm and 308, 7mm mag vs 300 win mag.
30 cal has 175gr. 6.5cm has 142gr.

Always the 30 cal has a bigger heavier bullet. How about when using same kind of cases, primers, powder, bullets and preparation processes? Only thing different would be grains of powder and not positive but size of primer. Use same brands of everything.

How would the two of any of them stack up? Would one out weight the other in performance and accuracy?

Just a thought. I was always a bigger is better kind of person but, seeing a lot of changes. I love learning new things. My knowledge is limited to 30 cal only and a 243 I just use one load. Never experimented with it. Thank you for any information you can give us.

Thank you,
Jeff D.


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Orkan,

I've read a lot of details on 6.5cm and .308 win. I've never shot a 6.5cm but I reload all the time for 308, 300win and 300 RUM.
Not to sound ignorant. My question is a lot of comparisons are done apples to oranges. 7mm-08 and 308, 6.5cm and 308, 7mm mag vs 300 win mag.
30 cal has 175gr. 6.5cm has 142gr.

Always the 30 cal has a bigger heavier bullet. How about when using same kind of cases, primers, powder, bullets and preparation processes? Only thing different would be grains of powder and not positive but size of primer. Use same brands of everything.

How would the two of any of them stack up? Would one out weight the other in performance and accuracy?

Just a thought. I was always a bigger is better kind of person but, seeing a lot of changes. I love learning new things. My knowledge is limited to 30 cal only and a 243 I just use one load. Never experimented with it. Thank you for any information you can give us.

Thank you,
Jeff D.


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The comparison you are talking about is an "apples to oranges" comparison. If I take the best bullet, powder, and primer, and brass combination for 308 and then expect it to perform in a different caliber then I am selling the second caliber short. The true "apples to apples" comparison is done when the best powder, bullet, primer, and brass combination is chosen individually for each cartridge because that tells what the cartridge is truly capable of.

For an extreme example. I could take a 308 rem loaded with varget and an AMAX and get fairly decent results. Now...take a 50 BMG loaded with varget and an AMAX and the 50 BMG might still out perform the 308, but it will suffer greatly or even be dangerous due to the inappropriate powder for the cartridge.
 

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Apples to Oranges to Apples again....

I keep looking at these discussions and always feel like there is something missing in the comparison, that somehow its not fair. So I threw a load of variations into QuickLoad[sup]TM[/sup] to compare the cartridges.

Luckily Lapua have a 6.5 and .308 bullet option that are damn near identical in BC. 120 grain and 175 grain Scenar-L with G1 BC of 0.497 vs 0.490, and G7 BC of 0.246 vs 0.247. (No I dont understand why 6.5 isnt higher in both BC types)

In QuickLoad[sup]TM[/sup] you can ask the program to provide potential powder given limiting factors of case capacity and % of max pressure, I use this for all cartridges.

Using a 26 inch Barrel:
.308 Winchester, using Reload Swiss 52, gives 818 m/s or 2683fps at the muzzle.
6.5x47 Lapua, using Reload Swiss 60 (a slower powder), gives 930 m/s or 3050 fps at the muzzle. (for those that cry out for creedmoor, it generates 15 m/s more for the same pressure)

I then sought to find a 30 calibre option that gave similar performance to the 6.5 using the same bullet the 308 used, 300 WSM fits the bill.
.300 WSM, using Reload Swiss 60, gives 930 m/s or 3050 fps at the muzzle. (Admittedly Reload Swiss 70 gave +2 m/s for the same pressure maximum)


I then sought to find a 6.5 calibre option that gave similar performance to the .308 Winchester, using the same bullet the 6.5x47 Lapua used. 6.5 Grendel works.
6.5 Grendel, using Hodgdon CFE223, gives 819 m/s or 2688 fps at the muzzle.

Comparing Energy at distance(600m distance at 15 Celcius [email protected] level):
6.5 Grendel: 932 joules, drop 6.18 mils, Velocity is subsonic @ 943m.
.308 Winchester: 1361 joules, drop 6.18 mils, Velocity is subsonic @ 946m.
6.5x47 Lapua: 1286 joules, drop 4.68 mils, Velocity is subsonic @ 1118m.
.300 WSM: 1884 joules, drop 4.67 mils, Velocity is subsonic @ 1120m.

Interestingly one of the arguments I've heard in favour of the 6.5x47 vs .308 is retained energy, comparing like with like I would say that they are the same, the animal wont notice 5% difference.

Regards

Dioxin
 

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However...one of the major advantages of the 6.5 over the 308 is the availability of bullets with higher BC. You stripped the 6.5 of that obvious advantage by forcing it to use a less than optimal bullet while giving the 308 one of the best available bullets out there. If you choose the best available bullet for 308 and the best available bullet for 6.5 (apples to apples) then you will see different results.
 

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However...one of the major advantages of the 6.5 over the 308 is the availability of bullets with higher BC. You stripped the 6.5 of that obvious advantage by forcing it to use a less than optimal bullet while giving the 308 one of the best available bullets out there. If you choose the best available bullet for 308 and the best available bullet for 6.5 (apples to apples) then you will see different results.
Some people are never happy....
My Apples to Apples comparison ignores such market driven forces such as availability, and attempts to be as impartial as possible, using pure calculated science from a respected source (QuickLoad).
I compared near identical rounds with respect to manufacturer, design, and BC. I additionally provided the same limitations of barrel length and pressure safety margin.
The only difference between them, were velocity, mass and diameter. Which I felt was adequately fair.

In your ignorance to read that which I had written. (the following points use my calculations above)
6.5x47 has considerably less drop
6.5x47 uses much less powder
6.5x47 requires less dialling for a given wind
6.5x47 has less recoil
6.5x47 has a higher effective range (due to greater distance before going subsonic)
.308 Winchester will apply more mass to the target


Lets try comparing best in calibre vs best in calibre. Continuing to use QuickLoad[sup]TM[/sup] for information about the capability of the rounds.
The Lapua Scenar 6.5mm 139 grain has a G7 BC of 0.290
The Lapua Scenar-L .308 220 grain has a G7 BC of .0324

139 grain 6.5mm:
Muzzle Velocity: 862 m/s
Energy at Muzzle: 3346 joules
Drop @600m: 5.21 mils
Energy @600m: 1454 joules
Wind @ 600m: 2.66 mils (Trying to base this off constant left to right 10 m/s wind, I dont think its 100% correct, but its the same wind for all rounds.)
Subsonic Distance: 1194m

220 grain .308:
Velocity: 731 m/s
Energy at Muzzle: 3809 joules
Drop @600m: 7.16 mils
Energy @600m: 1704 joules
Wind @ 600m: 3.00 mils (Trying to base this off constant left to right 10 m/s wind, I dont think its 100% correct, but its the same wind for all rounds.)
Subsonic Distance: 1040m

220 grain 300 WSM:
Velocity: 846 m/s
Energy at Muzzle: 5102 joules
Drop @600m: 5.25 mils
Energy @600m: 2421 joules
Wind @ 600m: 2.39 mils (Trying to base this off constant left to right 10 m/s wind, I dont think its 100% correct, but its the same wind for all rounds.)
Subsonic Distance: 1301m

308 still has more drop, more recoil, more retained energy, more wind call, less range, less muzzle velocity, and even MORE mass on target.
300 WSM edges out the 6.5x47 but this is due to higher BC.

This last comparison was greatly in favour of 308, but the 6.5 still beats it in the same categories. Retained energy was the only significant variation, 5% shifted to 18% difference. This is due to significantly higher BC.
And as before 6.5x47 ballisticly is more comparable with .300WSM than .308 Winchester.

The reason people are choosing 6.5mm cartridges, is because they are getting 300 WSM performance with less recoil than 308.
 

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As an aside to the above response.

I've found the comparison I just did very informative. 6.5x47 vs .308 is an unfair comparison except when discussing recoil. for Ballistics .300WSM is more comparable.

Steel doesnt care if its hit by 120grains or 175 grains, its still going to go ping. In all metrics that matter its far easier to do with the 120 grain bullet, than the 175.

I would love to see a study performed from a Military perspective to see if 6.5x47 (or similiar) could supplant .308 Win.
Anyone know of a 6.5mm AP round?
 

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Discussion Starter #100
So an update, I will be placing my order for a barreled Howa action in 308 with a 24" barrel this evening. Is there any last minute tips to avoid when ordering a barreled action? Anything that should convince me to not go this route?
 
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