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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

This article basically claims that the stopping power issues complained about by soldiers in CQB is not actually a problem, if one were to make the proper shots in the head/chest area. It cites poor marksmanship and non lethal shots as the primary cause as to the belief that the 5.56 mm M855/SS109 Steel Core Penetrator has insufficent stopping power, yet concedes some soldiers disagreed, stating that it took multiple shots to the vitals to down the occasional target.

My though on this is really the fact that it is naive to expect perfect shots on the vitals at all times. As such, I want a round capable of stopping on a miss as well. However, I am not an expert on such things, with no experience in such a field.

What do you guys think?
 

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One word: S.A.W.

No really, it is a pretty good article. I do agree with him to an extent. But what about the dude high on drugs? I can see that the 223 would (does) have problems with that.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
madgunsmith said:
I don't see anyone volunteering to get shot with one...




Mad
Can I punch you in the testicles? It certainly doesn't have the energy of a 5.56 mm, but i'll be damned if it'll hurt you :lol:
 

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I've never been in combat and hope I never will.

But I have done a lot of CQB training. And I know one thing, "proper shot placement" is a luxury you don't have too often in CQB. In essence, a typical exploding varmint bullet would do the trick. But then there's thing about not killing your enemy quick and without pain, instead of letting him suffer a few hours before death... :roll: If one is to follow the Hague convention there's really no easy solution - apart from some cannonball sized bullet - like the .458 SOCOM. But of course, that leads to tons of other problems...
 

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Maybe they need to clear the room with the 45-70 gov ? Or the .50 from Alexander Ams, if you don't hit'em you will at least give them a GOOD powder burn!
 

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CM2k said:
madgunsmith said:
I don't see anyone volunteering to get shot with one...




Mad
Can I punch you in the testicles? It certainly doesn't have the energy of a 5.56 mm, but i'll be damned if it'll hurt you :lol:

A good punch there might even kill someone. It would certainly incapacitate. And I don't see anyone lining up for a punch there either.
 

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re

I am not a big fan of the 5.56mm round, but then I have never seen anyone shot by one.

I think what people often forget however (including myself), is that the round is designed to have limited recoil and so make automatic bursts possible. Armies tend to focus an awful lot on semi-automatic shooting and accuracy, and so the ability to shoot 30 rounds while keeping them just about on target is over looked. Nobody is going to be happy if shot, even on of those new PDW rounds are going to spoil your day, and a burst of 5.56 is probably better than one or two shots of 7.62.
 

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Fact:
The biggest killer of people in Australia who died from gunshot wounds - the .22LR

Fact is they're all deadly aren't they? Still, bigger hole = faster bleed.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
madgunsmith said:
A good punch there might even kill someone. It would certainly incapacitate. And I don't see anyone lining up for a punch there either.
Then, under your "They aren't lining up to be hit with it" logic, we should employ short little children to wallop our opponents in the testicles? Sounds a bit like a violation of the Geneva convention :(
 

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There is a difference between killing an enemy and stopping an enemy. I've used the 5.56, 7.62 (x39 and x51), 9mm, .45, and a few others in combat and have developed my preferences based on their ability to end the enemy's ability to hurt ME...RIGHT NOW! The 7.62x51 will, with a reasonably well-placed shot, stop an enemy quickly and thus eliminate a threat. The same cannot be said for the 5.56. If your argument for the 5.56 is because it will kill the enemy I will remind you that a .177 cal air rifle has the ability to kill you, but it is not a reliable stopper. When you are in a firefight where you are facing superior numbers at close range, you cannot afford to waste an entire magazine into every opposing soldier just to stop his advance. The weight/rounds carried/recoil/etc. argument will never end, but ask a soldier that has used both the 5.56 and the 7.62 (x39 or x51) in actual combat and you will find almost universal preference for the 7.62. And the near-unanimous reason will be..."because it is more effective at keeping me alive."

K2
 

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Aussie Pete said:
Fact:
The biggest killer of people in Australia who died from gunshot wounds - the .22LR

Fact is they're all deadly aren't they? Still, bigger hole = faster bleed.
I'v said this before, the .22 lr is a very deadly round, it just doesn't have any stopping power.
 

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what makes the .22LR so deadly?
 

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APK-223 said:
what makes the .22LR so deadly?
The thing that makes them so deadly is they tend to go into the body and bounce around instead of punching through like a larger caliber. Once they get into surgery the MD has a hard time tracing the bullet path, finding all the little holes that are bleeding and stoopping the bleeding. That takes time, in the mean time you are bleeding out. A good example is a shooting I picked up.

The guy was shot in the left brest just below the nipple. He almost died enroute from a hemothorax. At the hospital I help hold him down while the MD put in a chest tube and pulled out 1200 cc of blood. After x-rays etc they found the bullet had lodged in the guys neck next to his spine. This was fire from about 10 feet from a raven .22 with a 2 1/2 bbl. Low velocity for a .22lr. Also after you plug all the holes the wounds tend to get infected because they are so small they can't drain well and the puss, blood etc builds up.

The thing is if you make a bad shot with a large cal and dont hit any vitals it will tend to go through and not bounce as much. If you make the same shot with a .22 since it bounces arond so much it is more likely to hit something vital without exiting the body. BTW I have seen many GSW's and I speak from experance, not just reading and conjecture.
 

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A surgeon once told me that .22 rimfire wounds tend to get infected quickly.

The waxy lubricant on the bullet tends to promote this wound infection.

I once helped defend a homicide wherein the deceased was shot with a .25ACP. One to the chest and that was it. The wound didn't seem like much from the x rays and photographs. But the guy died nonetheless.


Mad
 

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I've heard many a person claim a desire for a .22LR as a self-defense weapon due to its capacity to kill, and I think it is important to offer the disclaimer:

When defending yourself, you do not want to kill, but to stop, and to stop very quickly. A .22LR will kill them in a few days, but they can kill you immediately after you've shot them. A .45 ACP*, if properly placed (you should be practicing!) will stop them (most likely through traumatic blood loss) much, much quicker.

Scatch Maroo

*Any of the big calibers, so let's avoid that one. 8)
 
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