[muzzleblast]

Hey all,

Was readin this month's Guns and Ammo mag, and an article in it about the evolution of the AR 15. The writer was talkin up the 77 grain Black Hills match load and its lethality. He said that in Afghanistan kills were scored with it at 700 yards, and that two operators killed 75 taliban with 77 shots.

I believe the part about scoring kills at 700 yards, but I'm not too sure of the 75 kills with 77 shots by two people. Its kinda weird that two guys would engage so many targets with ARs. And that they would only miss twice. For all I know it happened but I am suprised I hadn't heard of it. Could be some of the kills came from air strikes or something?

Anybody know anything about this one?

 

[mele]

this one is news to me....

MEL

 

[muzzleblast]

Thanks Mel, good to know i'm not the only one who never heard of this...seems it would be big news

I thought maybe, if I really had to say how it happened, they called in Tac Air and then shot up a few of the survivors, claimed all the kills...buuut...I don't think it happened any way you look at it, really.

Why would two guys attempt to take on 75? I know Carlos took on more than that, but still....great way to get dead.

 

[Kaz]

Well, the lethality of even the 77 grain is pretty questionable out past, what, maybe 500 yards with a good hit and a long barrel? Sound reasonable to anyone else or am I putting too much faith in the load? As for 2 guys taking on 70-some... if it happened they've got some stones; or a damn good position.

 

[muzzleblast]

Then there's the 75 kills with 77 shots bit lol

 

[mele]

Well, sometimes the stuff hits the fan. Lets talk Somalia. The Ranger and D-Boys had quite the shoot out. I'd venture to say Gordon and Shugert probably had a kill ratio near that, only because there were so many targets to shoot at, it was hard to miss. :shock:

What I'm wondering is why/how someone got approval to shoot 77gr bullets as their standard ammo, unless it was some SOG. I doubt a regular line unit would have the leeway to use it. I do suppose it could be an army wide study/test.

MEL

 

[muzzleblast]

Yeah, thats true...Black Hawk Down scenario didn't cross my mind.

It said they were "Operators" so probably some kind of SOG or secret squirrels

 

[Scatch Maroo]

Then there's the 75 kills with 77 shots bit lol

Perhaps 77 hits were made, and those 77 hits produced 75 kills? Maybe the ad is trying to say that a 223 can put people down in one hit much easier now? I don't know if they had an issue with 223s not doing it fast enough prior.

Scatch Maroo

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

more than likely an SF / SOC sniper team in tora-bora / jalalabad area (5th SFG runs that area) using the MK-262 / MK-262 Mod 0 ammo with the SPR-4 rifle... its perfectly capable of one shot kills out to 800 yards or so.

Scroll all the way down to the last question and answer...

http://www.geocities.com/expert_riflema ... 23two.html

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

75 taliban killed by 2 "Operators" using sniper weapons is perfectly legit... ive seen it happen... allthough it wasnt 75 taliban it was more like 45. Basically... we sit up top the highest peak we can find that is within shooting distance of all the trails they use when traveling from pakistan to afghanistan and the snipers go to work... especially when they are using suppressors and the taliban insurgents cant see or hear where its comming from... they dont know where to hide. So... basically they pop them off one at a time as they run into each other running around trying to get out of the area. Some times they will just sit there behind a rock or small hill where we cant get them... and we will wait maybe 30 minutes at most... if he doesnt surrender then we just call in close air support VIA A/H-1W Super Cobra... and let him have some fun. So... as far as 2 Operators taking out 75 or so enemy with SPR rifles as far out as 700 yards... is perfectly legit. Especially when coupled with the MK-262 Mod 0 ammo.

 

[madgunsmith]

I say those two Special Forces guys should be up on report.

They should face some sort of disciplinary action for wasting those two cartridges.

But then again, maybe not. Under the circumstances, I'm sure that we can all forgive them.



Mad

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

Yea... the ammo isnt cheap but its beggining to be mass produced for SOCOM and other SOC / SOG / SF / Multi Branch / Multi National Special Operations units. In 2002, SOCOM and the USMC ordered an additional 1.1 Million rounds of MK-262 Mod 1 on top of the several million rounds of MK-262 Mod 0 they have allready ordered. The MK-262 (redesignated MK-262 Mod 0) and the MK-262 Mod 1 have been around for a few years... my unit uses the MK-262 Mod 1 (cannelured 77Gr nosler hollowpoint boat tail ammo) for all of our M-4A1 SOPMOD and M-4A3 SFMOD carbines (M-4A3 has the 10.5 inch shorty dynamic entry barrel)... and our ammunition liason team has requested (thanks to the Sgt Maj) that we recieve MK-262 Mod 1 belted for the M-249 SAW / PARA / SPW and our newer MK-46 SAW's. The scuttlebutt around the Co is that there is a new 5.56 sniper round comming out soon... called the MK-556LR... its basically a match grade BH 100gr load. Its not official but thats what every one is talking about at the range.

 

[mele]

So, based on all of this information, why is the 6.8SPC causing a stir? Of course, we all know that there is a small chance in heck that the 6.8 will ever be adopted by NATO, which means our armed forces will not be adopting it anytime soon. So, the 77's seem to be a very nice alternative and a good fit for the 5.56.

I'm still scratching my head a bit over the 6.8

MEL

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

Yea... i doubt the 6.8 will be adopted any time soon... and hopefully we dont adopt that damn XM-8 either... its a movie gun if you ask me. And just to clarify somthing... because i know sooner or later some one will ask "isnt it illegal to use hollow points in the military since we signed the geneva convention?". You probably mean the Hague Peace Conference held in July 1899. That was when "bullets that expand or flatten easily in the human body" were first proscribed. The United States was never a signatory to the Hague Peace Conference which meant that not only could the United States use those rounds but also that if the US entered a conflict all the other parties could use them too.

The United States did, however, sign the Hague Convention 1907, Article 23(e) which forbade: "...arms, projectiles, or material (sic) calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." As a result, US snipers used M-118 ammo, a "Match" version of M-80 ball. (7.62×51mm 173-grain solid-tipped boat tail). In late 1985, the Judge Advocate General wrote an opinion which affirmed that expanding ammo was legal for the US to use in operations "not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State" (like counter terrorist operations, for example).

In 1990, another opinion permitted the use of the Sierra MatchKing hollowpoint round by US snipers, reasoning that it was not designed to expand or fragment and that the hollowpoint design was a result of the requirements for manufacturing super-accurate bullets. Then in 1993 Special Operations Command was given the go-ahead by the Judge Advocate General to equip their forces with JHP rounds (Winchester "Black Talon" at the time) for their H&K MK 23 pistols.

 

[muzzleblast]

I find it kinda funny that people are saying a lot of things about the XM-8 that were said about the M-16 when it first showed up...As to the 100 Gr .223 bullet, would the weapon only work really well with that load because of the rate of twist it would need?

I gotta admit...I never thought about how two of the Talibs may have required second shots.

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

So, based on all of this information, why is the 6.8SPC causing a stir?

MEL

Im guessing because most people are sadly miss informed about the full capabilities of the 5.56X45mm caliber... i mean heck... when the target is closer than 250 yards ill take 5.56X45mm M-193 over M-80 7.62X51mm Ball ammo anyday... the M-193 will dramatically fragment apon impact of any surface at a velocity as low as 2,600 FPS... and we all know what happens when a 55gr bullet going 2,600 fps does to a body when it dramatically fragments... its going to make a MASSIVE wound. All these stories about "i shot this dude point blank 5 times and he just ran off..." is because sadly... the US Military issues M-855 "Penetrator" ammo alot more than M-193 ammo... and a round designed for penetrating armor and windows at a distance is obviously one of the last ammo choices you should want for close in fighting... all it will do is make a tiny hole all the way though due to its design to stay together and penetrate... not expand.

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

I find it kinda funny that people are saying a lot of things about the XM-8 that were said about the M-16 when it first showed up...

Yes and look how long it took us to turn the M-16 into a real combat rifle... as of right now the XM-8 does not have any iron sights... does not have a bayonet lug... does not have any type of picatinny rail system... does not have any type of manual sight adjustment... not to mention it isnt very accurate at all... We would be taking a step backwards. It took us from 1966 to 1985 to fix the M-16... that probably means its going to take us from X date of adoption of the XM-8 to Y ... Y = X + 14 to fix the XM-8 once we adopt it... oh yea... did i mention the XM-8 is not rated to function with M-193 ammunition? :lol: This is rediculous... they are making the same mistakes they did 30 some odd years ago. There are only two things i like about the XM-8... the fully curved magazine that follows the curvature of a 30 round stack of 5.56 ammo... and the gas system. Other than that i really dont think theres anything to write home about.

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

I can only imagine... "Hello i am Staff Sergeant Moron... and i am here to introduce you to your new rifle! The MIGHTY XM-8... its self cleaning!!!" :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[muzzleblast]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, BC

In its current incarnation, do you think the M-16 even needs replacing? and if so how about just a regular G-36? I guess it needs picatinny rails, a bayo lug, and irons though.

Would definately be cool to have a quality rifle with the features of the M-16 and a gas piston

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

The M-16A2 was a suitable rifle... the M-16A3 (detachable carry handle for mounting of optics) and the M-16A4 (detachable carry handle for mounting of optics and 1913 picatinny rail hand guard system) are good rifles... allthough i think the future is going to be in the M-4A1 type carbines with 14.5" barrels. The USMC's standard issue rifle (for combat MOS Marines) is the M-16A4 with a Trijicon ACOG 4 power sight (depending on unit the optics vary... but most units have the ACOG 4X) and a forward combat grip (aka ghetto grip). Some of guys buy there own stuff... tricking out there rifles like theres no tomorow... but most take the standard issue Red dots and ACOG's.

Most of the US Army guys that i have seen in Iraq had M-4A1's with Red Dots... SureFire lights... Ghetto grips... and AN/PEQ-2 Lazer's as standard issue (even the reservist's and national guard :shock: ) As far as replacing the M-16 / M-4 series of rifles and carbines... one of the rifles i wouldnt mind carrying would be the G-36 as you mentioned... its a fine rifle. And there are variants of it that have picatinny rails and flip up iron sights. Another good idea is to update the M-16A3 / M-16A4 / M-4A1's / M-4A3's with the piston driven gas systems that have really started to show themselves (like at the 2005 shot show). There was word about the Marine Corps updating to the new gas system a few years ago... but due to funding shortages (thanks clinton) i doubt it will happen any time soon... allthough i would like it too.