[Bead Drawer]

Mel's extreme range (1600 yard!) :shock: proposal gave me a few ideas, and the rusty gears got to turning. (Ignore for the moment I need more than a little practice to even think about it).

Besides the .50 BMG, .408 CheyTac, and .338 Lapua, what other calibers can even make it that far, stay sonic, and not require hold-over? Let me refine that a little, what other non barrel-burning clavical cracking calibers :wink: ? Preferably with recoil less than 180 grain .308 @ 2700.

I'm thinking in the range of 6.5 Swede, maybe .260 Rem, maybe others...? No 6.5x284, barrel life is too short.

Also, what does everything think about the 6mmXC? David Tubb has been doing great at the 1k yard line with it, and its now a SAAMI cartridge. With the 115 grain SMK its not bad, but is it suitable for sniping?

Thanks

 

[Jeffvn]

The 6XC is supposed to be very nice indeed. From what I've read, it has some barrel life issues too. I recall something in the 2,000 round range. Plus, unless you fireform your brass, there has been a back log on brass deliveries - something like 6 months behind and potentially still growing.

JeffVN

ps taake a look at the long-range shooting.com web site there is lots of dicsussion of this chambering on that site.

 

[mele]

Oh... I like this topic!!

But, with physics being as they are... its going to be tough meeting all your criteria. But I have a few ideas.

How about the 6.5x55 swede with factory lapua loads.

It HAS to be the 123gr silver (moly). The moly loads have an extra 65 fps over the non silver. It shoots a 123gr with .547 BC at 2919 fps. Now, at 1600 yards, its right on the transonic layer at 1029fps. There is not a lot of energy (289 ft-lbs) but if we are just talking targets, it may work. You will need close to 80 MOA of up elevation to get there though, but with a leupold Mk4 16x and a 20 MOA base you are there (it has 140 MOA total elevation). The problem with this load is that lapua used a 29" test barrel. But, if you were building a dedicated 1600y rifle, this wouldn't be an issue (and helps with your recoil).

Now, the sniper central 260 LR load is nearly identical. We plan to load the same bullet to 2900fps from a 24", but if you had a 28" or so barrel, you might get even more. All the same things as above apply.

The Lapua Silver 139gr 6.5x55 is very similar at that range with drop being a bit more, (still under that 80 MOA) but it arrives with more energy (348 ft-lbs).

Now, lets talk a little reloading, which could really make the 55 swede do well. The load I'm looking at is the 144gr lapua FMJBT (.636 BC) with 48.6g of N560. This launches this bullet at 2789 from a 26.5" barrel. This should still be good on barrel life, and with a 28"-29" barrel, it'd get some more velocity. But as it stands, it arrives on target with 386 ft-lbs (about a 9mm at the muzzle) and right at about 1100fps (keeping it super sonic) and dropping about 73 MOA. Not in the league with BMG's or 338 Lapua's, but it would work in fair weather. Time of flight? heheh... 2.84 seconds
:shock:

Anyway, just some thoughts.

MEL

 

[Bead Drawer]

Thanks for the good ideas guys. Oh, I just double checked, Mel's extreme range proposal was 1600 meters, not yards, whoops. Still, 1600 yards is way out there.

Jeffvn, well, I don't really want to get into fire forming, and 2k rounds is a little short on life, looks like the 6mmXC is on the shelf for me.

Mel, I really like your proposed load with the 144 grain FMJBT. The others are good too, of course, now I have plenty more ideas . Seems like a long flight time, but then that's a long way...and going to hotter cartridges would likely go against my "no short barrel life or excessive recoil" desire. *grin* Physics...

 

[mele]

I like the 1600 meter, well 1609 to be a bit more exact, as that is an even 1 mile.

These loads will be struggling at 1 mile (1760 yards), but it would be fun!

the 144gr at 2800fps (28" barrel) at 1800 yards is right at transonic layer (a tad over 1000 fps), still has 334 ft-lbs of energy, drops 90 MOA, and takes 3.39 seconds to get there.

I'd try it. 20 MOA base, 16x Mk4, and perhaps a slight hold over... depending on conditions. sounds like I better start building my rifle.

MEL

 

[Kenshin]

What about the 300 phonix?
I know its dead but dose anyone ..Mad??.. know if this round is up to the 1k job??
I've only ever read about the round has anyone had any trial with it.
just curious.
cheers,
Kenshin

 

[Bead Drawer]

Mel Sounds like a ton of fun! 8) We'll have to see pictures, naturally.

Ringing steel at 1 mile with a custom rifle and custom loaded 6.5: priceless. Also, think of the bragging rights.

6.5s (all of them) just seem really good, better than most non-monster cartridges for the long stuff. I'm having trouble deciding between a 6.5 and the .308. *grin*

Kenshin I think the .300 Phoenix could probably do fine at 1k. It's a magnum 30 after all. Problem is it's hard on the barrel and the shoulder, again things I'm trying to avoid here.


I'm really asking a lot from a cartridge here. I'll get ahold of some ballistics software and see what else I can come up with at some point.

 

[Jeffvn]

Here is your answer

I've been looking at my Quickload wioth your 1 mile shot in mind. I think you're best off looking at the 30-06 or 30-06 AI, using a Berger 185 or 190 VLD (with a 30" tube), or take a look at the 280, or 280 AI. My next custom will be a 280 AI shooting the 162 - 180 grain VLDs.

the 30-06 shooting 190 VLD Bergers at 2,900 fps from a 30" tube (roughly 58K chamber pressure) maintains its energy at 1,600 yards (514 lbs), is comfortably supersonic (1,128 fps), and should not be too hard on barrels, assuming you don't get the barrel hot enough to boil water.

Now my .280 AI, shooting the 168 Berger VLD at 2,860 fps, 30" tube (less than 50K pressure), has 524 lbs energy, is still running 1,185 fps, and about 15 MOA flatter than the 30-06 load mentioned above. If I moved up to the Berger 180s (BC nearly .700), then the MOA to get to 1,600 yards goes up, but so does the retained velocity and energy (as well as recoil) by about 5% (and the windage goes down by about 5%). :shock: At 1,000 yards the numbers are absolutely amazing.

In both cases, the key to happiness is the 30" tube, as it buys you velocity with much less chamber pressure, even as compared to a 28" tube.

Oh yeah one more consideration that I require - NO MUZZLE BREAK. I want to shoot this guy in the local 1,000 yard matches, and you cannot use a break in those matches.

I looked HARD at the 30-06, 30-06AI, 280, and 280AI as the largest chambering that I could survive a 60+ round day at the range without developing a significant flintch. I expect this rifle, with glass, will weigh in at roughly 18 pounds (not really field friendly in the concept of humping it on a daily basis), but that will tame the recoil a bit.

JeffVN

shhhhhhhhhh - Its a secret, but I've been talking to Mel about building this .280 AI on a McHale of Baker Stock - it would be "built" under the tag of a SC-1 with custom chamber and a broughton stainless steel barrel. If I get lucky and can save my duckets I might have the rifle in hand at next year's cook out at Mel's cabin.

 

[Bead Drawer]

I like how you think Jeffvn

You've got a ton of good ideas there, and a Baker Special stock...oh yes.

I agree with the muzzle break thing, I don't want one either. The 30 inch barrel seems like fun, although it makes for a long, heavy gun. Of course, for recoil control (one of my desires) heavy=good.

You've got a good thing going there with your .280 AI. Between you and Mel, I'm reeling with new cartridge ideas *grin*.

*EDIT* Congrats on the future rifle. Of course, you know we'll have to see pics once you get her built. :wink:

 

[Bead Drawer]

One more quick little note, I initially wondered about how suitable some of the 6.5 loads would be for things other than paper. I found this: http://www.65grendel.com/art004balltests1.htm pieces of a report testing the 6.5 Grendel. It's not the cartridge we were talking about, but the tests seem relevant. The 144 grain FMJBT performs well, and the FBI people speculate that the 123 Scenar will perform well too. Anything the 6.5 Grendel can do, the .260 or 6.5 Swede can do better. If you're interested, its a good read.

 

[mele]

Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read. I am starting to like this 144 FMJBT bullet for a 6.5x55 rifle. I wish I could push it faster from a .260

MEL