Ar 10 or Psg 1
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By AR10, do you mean SR-25? If so, probably not. The 10k price tag on the PSG1 isn't because of the fancy pistol grip. It's a quality machine, providing at the VERY LEAST 1 MOA. Some even say that it fires to the Ammo's limitations, but that sounds a bit too good to be true.
Id go with ar 10. Its a lot cheaper and weighs 7 less pounds. There have been Ar 10s that shoot very very well plus you can find them in more calibers than 308. I dont think the very minimal gain in accuracy, less than 1/4 moa probably, is worth the extra 6 to 7 grand. Also you cant change out scopes on a psg and you can on ar 10 in addition to iron sights if you wanted. Then there is the question of reliability. Dont know about either that on either.
To answer the question as it was asked, ruling out price, availability, etc. Then the answer is NO, the AR-10, or AR-10(T) or SR-25, or any of the other .308 based AR15's do not have the capability of the PSG-1. That capability including accuracy, reliability, "suppressed" bolt closure, etc etc.
MEL
MEL
!
If you drop $10,000.00 into a AR-10... SR-25 then it might get close to the PSG1.....you might as well buy the PSG1 and save yourself the trouble of buying thousands of dollors in upgrades to help your SR-25 perform like a PSG1.
Anyone know if you can now change scopes on the PSG1?
If you drop $10,000.00 into a AR-10... SR-25 then it might get close to the PSG1.....you might as well buy the PSG1 and save yourself the trouble of buying thousands of dollors in upgrades to help your SR-25 perform like a PSG1.
Anyone know if you can now change scopes on the PSG1?
heh i was the one who suggested to Max that teh AR-10T is on par w/ the PSG-1 for accruacy and im standing by it... didnt say better but obviously thinking better value heh
AR-15 and AR-10 type guns are as accurate as semi-autos come (in my opinion) and even better accuracy than some bolt actions in thier price range (Tac Ops would win hands down in an accuracy contest but lets not go there... try any quality accurized AR-15 or AR-10 type rifles you will be impressed with good bolt action accuracy)
reliabilty wise an AR-15 can go 1000 rounds firing without problems.. havnt had any problems with eithe rof my AR-15s and i say they are as reliable as anything else so far they have not let me down... not sure how well it shoots dirty but sohuld be ok for a law enforcement sniper not so sure about a military sniper stuck in a swamp for a few hours havnt done these tests with the rifle heh
Mel: if ya need a rifle to review try out the Bushmaster Varminter.. own one (or atleast the upper receiver.. lower im goign to order real soon) and 3 friends have one.. theirs all shoot sub 1/2 moa with factory ammo consistantly.. been gettitng scary accuracy out of mine... through the same hole @ 100y when i do my part
they even do well (1/2 moa or better or atleast mine does) wtih cheap surplus full metal jackets and even better with Federal Gold Medal Match 69 gr BTHP
AR-15 and AR-10 type guns are as accurate as semi-autos come (in my opinion) and even better accuracy than some bolt actions in thier price range (Tac Ops would win hands down in an accuracy contest but lets not go there... try any quality accurized AR-15 or AR-10 type rifles you will be impressed with good bolt action accuracy)
reliabilty wise an AR-15 can go 1000 rounds firing without problems.. havnt had any problems with eithe rof my AR-15s and i say they are as reliable as anything else so far they have not let me down... not sure how well it shoots dirty but sohuld be ok for a law enforcement sniper not so sure about a military sniper stuck in a swamp for a few hours havnt done these tests with the rifle heh
Mel: if ya need a rifle to review try out the Bushmaster Varminter.. own one (or atleast the upper receiver.. lower im goign to order real soon) and 3 friends have one.. theirs all shoot sub 1/2 moa with factory ammo consistantly.. been gettitng scary accuracy out of mine... through the same hole @ 100y when i do my part
they even do well (1/2 moa or better or atleast mine does) wtih cheap surplus full metal jackets and even better with Federal Gold Medal Match 69 gr BTHP
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471 Posts
Jeff_850,
I have been considering this addition to my arsenal. What do you recommend between the Bushmaster Varminter and the Armalite M15 SOF? I'm leaning towards the Armalite SOF but just dont know which config would be better suited for precision. The AR-10 or M15 and then there is A2 or A4. I have never owned any 223 clone or this type of weapon and want to start out right, especially with the ban possibly lifting in September....
I have been considering this addition to my arsenal. What do you recommend between the Bushmaster Varminter and the Armalite M15 SOF? I'm leaning towards the Armalite SOF but just dont know which config would be better suited for precision. The AR-10 or M15 and then there is A2 or A4. I have never owned any 223 clone or this type of weapon and want to start out right, especially with the ban possibly lifting in September....
Yes, indeed, many of the modern Ar15 type rifles are getting very accurate. But as I mentioned, capability includes reliability (when clean, AR's work well, field conditions get questionable, and .308 compounds the problems). The AR10's, SR25's, etc are .223 rifles made to shoot .308's. The PSG-1 is based on the HK91 and is a .308 rifle from the ground up. Though they did re-enforce the receiver walls to improve accuracy. SR25's have a bad rep with the US Military because of reliability (extractors and other pieces fail, though they have been getting better).
Accuracy is always difficult because two rifles of identical construction will not perform the same with the same ammo...
MEL
Accuracy is always difficult because two rifles of identical construction will not perform the same with the same ammo...
MEL
Specter:
if you want a more accurate precision semi-auto for shorter ranges and varmint hunting nothing beats a Bushmaster Varminter ($1250) but this isnt the only accurized AR-15 type rifle that shoots 1/4 to 1/2 moa consistantly, Armalite AR-15T (i have herd great things about) and my friend with a DPMS upper receiver and a Bushmaster lower is getting down around 1/2 moa, Stoner SR-15 Match is also good but more expensive my book its paying more and getting the same ($1800)... Colt has an accurized AR-15 too worth checking out.. havnt ever fired one yet though
if you want a semi-auto for longer ranges or big/medium game hunting.. the AR-15's bigger cousins are every bit as accurate.. the the AR-10T is probably the best (but $2000+), SR-25 is a bit over priced if ya ask me, never shot one though, shot a DPMS Panther .308 was very good, 1/2- 3/4 moa groups most of the time, probably the best deal at $1200 range
for plinking and also good for target shooting but not as accurate an M4 style AR from Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite, DPMS would be good.. you could go with the 20" barrel if you want its all about personal prefernce they are all great rifles my M4 Carbine ($1065 retail +90 for A3 configuration) shoots 3/4 moa, although i havnt fired an Armalite AR-15 type they claim 1.5 - 2 moa and i expect them to shoot more accurately than they claim
if you want to just use iron sights A2 is ok, if you think you might want to mount a scope then A3 is going to be betterf for ya
as far as the AR-10 types in carbine configuration i suppose they are nice but havnt shot any so i dont know heh
as far as the ban all i know is that Bushmaster and other comapnies too make pre-ban upper receivers that you can put on your AR-15 lower when the ban goes.. i personally like the M4 post ban lower as its a heavier barrel and doesnt have the flash hider.. makes it more accurate, muzzle brake is just there for cosmetics and hoenstly you dont need it with an AR but you will be able to put a pre-ban type lower on if you choose to when the ban expires
my personal favorite AR-15 is the Bushmaster Varminter but im not saying best period only best for me
hope this helps some
if you want a more accurate precision semi-auto for shorter ranges and varmint hunting nothing beats a Bushmaster Varminter ($1250) but this isnt the only accurized AR-15 type rifle that shoots 1/4 to 1/2 moa consistantly, Armalite AR-15T (i have herd great things about) and my friend with a DPMS upper receiver and a Bushmaster lower is getting down around 1/2 moa, Stoner SR-15 Match is also good but more expensive my book its paying more and getting the same ($1800)... Colt has an accurized AR-15 too worth checking out.. havnt ever fired one yet though
if you want a semi-auto for longer ranges or big/medium game hunting.. the AR-15's bigger cousins are every bit as accurate.. the the AR-10T is probably the best (but $2000+), SR-25 is a bit over priced if ya ask me, never shot one though, shot a DPMS Panther .308 was very good, 1/2- 3/4 moa groups most of the time, probably the best deal at $1200 range
for plinking and also good for target shooting but not as accurate an M4 style AR from Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite, DPMS would be good.. you could go with the 20" barrel if you want its all about personal prefernce they are all great rifles my M4 Carbine ($1065 retail +90 for A3 configuration) shoots 3/4 moa, although i havnt fired an Armalite AR-15 type they claim 1.5 - 2 moa and i expect them to shoot more accurately than they claim
if you want to just use iron sights A2 is ok, if you think you might want to mount a scope then A3 is going to be betterf for ya
as far as the AR-10 types in carbine configuration i suppose they are nice but havnt shot any so i dont know heh
as far as the ban all i know is that Bushmaster and other comapnies too make pre-ban upper receivers that you can put on your AR-15 lower when the ban goes.. i personally like the M4 post ban lower as its a heavier barrel and doesnt have the flash hider.. makes it more accurate, muzzle brake is just there for cosmetics and hoenstly you dont need it with an AR but you will be able to put a pre-ban type lower on if you choose to when the ban expires
my personal favorite AR-15 is the Bushmaster Varminter but im not saying best period only best for me
hope this helps some
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Now, I am primarily concerned with accuracy and I'm considering the Bushmaster Varminter or the AR 10T. However how do they compare to the Armalite SOF? Is this the M4A3 you spoke of:
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This would be a medium to short distance addition to my arsenal. I wanted to get aquainted with them and learn more about them by owning one. I will never turn my back on my good ol' bolt actions. :wink:
This would be a medium to short distance addition to my arsenal. I wanted to get aquainted with them and learn more about them by owning one. I will never turn my back on my good ol' bolt actions. :wink:
well not my exact M4 but close, mine doesnt have collapsable stock or flash hider because its post ban anyways
the AR-10T is going to be moer accurate at longer ranges only but at short to medium ranges the Varminter will be just as accurate if not more accurate
for the Varminter or M4 the mags are going to be cheaper and ammo will be cheaper
AR-10Ts will be more expensive too.. for short to medium range an AR-10T is pay more get the same i would go with the Varminter
acuracy wise the standard or lightweight AR-15s dont compare to the accurized ones period
yes they are VERY good .. but accuirzed ones tend to be that much better
my Varminter will half the groups of my M4
Federal GM 69 gr SMK BTHP 10 shot gruops about .8" @ 200y is what my Varminter can do and about 1/4 - 1/2" groups @ 100y even with Federal XM193 US military surplus and Match ammo heh
havnt tried 77 grain SMK yet but i inted to heh
stuff is well priced at www.cheaperthandirt.com $3.79/pack of 20 for Federal M193 btw thx Mel i knew of that site's existance because i saw it on this website long before i was a gunowner heh the ammount i shoot and the ammount ammo costs up here it has saved me a huge ammount of money heh
if you want accuracy go with the Varminter.. you will get a wonderfully accurate rifle for a much lower price than anything else that can match it but you cant go wrong by buying any of the types you mentioned
here is some stuff you should check out:
Bushmaster's accuracy:
http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/accuracy.asp
accurzied AR-15 type reviews
http://www.gunblast.com/AR15_HBARs.htm
Eagle Arms AR-10T (Armalite is eagle Arms higher end products)
http://www.gunblast.com/Eagle_AR10.htm
Bushmaster Varmitner
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm
in the homeland security article Jeff Quinn states "
My Bushmaster Varminter is the most accurate center fire rifle that I own."
http://www.gunblast.com/Homeland_Security.htm
most accurate rifle i own too but i only have 2 to compare it to at the moment lol
anyways
hope this helps
Jeff
the AR-10T is going to be moer accurate at longer ranges only but at short to medium ranges the Varminter will be just as accurate if not more accurate
for the Varminter or M4 the mags are going to be cheaper and ammo will be cheaper
AR-10Ts will be more expensive too.. for short to medium range an AR-10T is pay more get the same i would go with the Varminter
acuracy wise the standard or lightweight AR-15s dont compare to the accurized ones period
yes they are VERY good .. but accuirzed ones tend to be that much better
my Varminter will half the groups of my M4
Federal GM 69 gr SMK BTHP 10 shot gruops about .8" @ 200y is what my Varminter can do and about 1/4 - 1/2" groups @ 100y even with Federal XM193 US military surplus and Match ammo heh
havnt tried 77 grain SMK yet but i inted to heh
stuff is well priced at www.cheaperthandirt.com $3.79/pack of 20 for Federal M193 btw thx Mel i knew of that site's existance because i saw it on this website long before i was a gunowner heh the ammount i shoot and the ammount ammo costs up here it has saved me a huge ammount of money heh
if you want accuracy go with the Varminter.. you will get a wonderfully accurate rifle for a much lower price than anything else that can match it but you cant go wrong by buying any of the types you mentioned
here is some stuff you should check out:
Bushmaster's accuracy:
http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/accuracy.asp
accurzied AR-15 type reviews
http://www.gunblast.com/AR15_HBARs.htm
Eagle Arms AR-10T (Armalite is eagle Arms higher end products)
http://www.gunblast.com/Eagle_AR10.htm
Bushmaster Varmitner
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm
in the homeland security article Jeff Quinn states "
My Bushmaster Varminter is the most accurate center fire rifle that I own."
http://www.gunblast.com/Homeland_Security.htm
most accurate rifle i own too but i only have 2 to compare it to at the moment lol
anyways
hope this helps
Jeff
But back to the original post...
PSG-1 will beat the AR-10T any day...As was stated before, there is a reason for the $8000 price difference. Reliability in the PSG-1 has got to be better, as the parent HK-91 was unstoppable, making the AR series pale in comparison. As far as accuracy, the PSG-1 has to print a less-than 3.5 inch group at 300 meters with 50 shots! On a good day, the AR-10T might be able to print a 3, or even a 5 shot 3.5 inch group at 300 yards, but fifty shots? And I see no reason to swap out the scope, as why would you want to get rid of that pricey Hensoldt? And if you have to get rid of it due to scope failure, its already broken, so just snap it off. So no, in my opinion, comparing the PSG-1 and the AR-10T is like comparing a Ford Focus to a Lambourghini...
Just my 2 cents- Jake
PSG-1 will beat the AR-10T any day...As was stated before, there is a reason for the $8000 price difference. Reliability in the PSG-1 has got to be better, as the parent HK-91 was unstoppable, making the AR series pale in comparison. As far as accuracy, the PSG-1 has to print a less-than 3.5 inch group at 300 meters with 50 shots! On a good day, the AR-10T might be able to print a 3, or even a 5 shot 3.5 inch group at 300 yards, but fifty shots? And I see no reason to swap out the scope, as why would you want to get rid of that pricey Hensoldt? And if you have to get rid of it due to scope failure, its already broken, so just snap it off. So no, in my opinion, comparing the PSG-1 and the AR-10T is like comparing a Ford Focus to a Lambourghini...
Just my 2 cents- Jake
well some people might want more than 6x but honestly i set my Leupold scope on my Varminter to 6x most of the time so i couldnt complain and im not going to complain about the quality of a Hensoldt
anyway about teh accuracy i think its 3.14" 50 shot group @ 300m
an AR-10T might be able to print a 1.5" 3 or maybe even 5 shot group @ 300m but possibly since it costs $8000 less could be followed by one that prints a 4" group @ 300m? but i think that 'bad' rifles like that are few and far between
my Varminter can get 10 shot groups at 300m down to about 2" would 50 shot group open up more??? probably.. thats a .223 though a .308 version of that gun would probably do better heh id love nothing more than a .308 version of my Varmitner but there is none heh
now then what about price?
i would say hands down the AR-10T is a better value
anyway about teh accuracy i think its 3.14" 50 shot group @ 300m
an AR-10T might be able to print a 1.5" 3 or maybe even 5 shot group @ 300m but possibly since it costs $8000 less could be followed by one that prints a 4" group @ 300m? but i think that 'bad' rifles like that are few and far between
my Varminter can get 10 shot groups at 300m down to about 2" would 50 shot group open up more??? probably.. thats a .223 though a .308 version of that gun would probably do better heh id love nothing more than a .308 version of my Varmitner but there is none heh
now then what about price?
i would say hands down the AR-10T is a better value
The Hendsoldt does a fine job on the PSG1. Certainly, it's short on range, but that gun is never going to see a swamp, seeing as it's way to delicate for Field work, and is better suited for Urban work only. Seeing as it is the only scope that gun will see, it also holds a Zero permanently. And hell, if you're not in an urban enviroment, would you even WANT to put out Semi-automatic fire? It's bad enough when you put 2 shots out of the same hide, much less Semi-automatic fire.
most people doenst really matter for a PSG-1 if it dropped $8000 in price then most people would be put into consideration for the gun heh
$10,000 rifles like this usually only show up in elite units heh
scope only goes out to 100-600m though although that is way far for police sniping doesnt cover much for military sniping
$10,000 rifles like this usually only show up in elite units heh
scope only goes out to 100-600m though although that is way far for police sniping doesnt cover much for military sniping
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The question was performence so i would say PSG-1, but for accuracy i wouldnt know never have shot a PSG-1 or the Ar-10 i have looked into them of course but i prefer hands on over what i read. PSG-1 is out of the Ar series league preferably don't get either.
my Bushmaster AR-15 lower i should have by or maybe even before next Tuesday that would be a complete Bushmaster Varminter then...
right now im using a lightweight tele style stock which is super light and no good for the Varminter heh
when i get the A2 buttstock on my next lower i also have a 4 lb weight ot put int he stock + 1.5 lbs for bi-pod and optics and 1 lb for the mag + 9 lb rifle = 15 lbs about 2 1/2 lbs lighter than a PSG-1 but i believe that teh AR-10T's base weight is 10.4 lbs which is almost 2 lbs heavier, if you had a heavier scope than i have on there (a Leupold VX-I) you oculd make the rifle heavier than mine is
at the light weight of about 10 lbs my Bushmaster Varminter is deadly accurate perhapes at 100y more accurate than a PSG-1 but i have no PSG-1 to test it against heh
some time im going to have to try to shoot a 50 shot group @ 300m to see if i can get sub 3.14" but honeslty it seems like quite a waste of ammo and id be more likely to skrew up than the gun would be
i have put 10 shots through the same hole just all i use is a bi-pod so i cant tell HOW accurate it is only how accurate i can shoot... i expect that ill be shooting a lot better with a heavier stock... we'll see
right now im using a lightweight tele style stock which is super light and no good for the Varminter heh
when i get the A2 buttstock on my next lower i also have a 4 lb weight ot put int he stock + 1.5 lbs for bi-pod and optics and 1 lb for the mag + 9 lb rifle = 15 lbs about 2 1/2 lbs lighter than a PSG-1 but i believe that teh AR-10T's base weight is 10.4 lbs which is almost 2 lbs heavier, if you had a heavier scope than i have on there (a Leupold VX-I) you oculd make the rifle heavier than mine is
at the light weight of about 10 lbs my Bushmaster Varminter is deadly accurate perhapes at 100y more accurate than a PSG-1 but i have no PSG-1 to test it against heh
some time im going to have to try to shoot a 50 shot group @ 300m to see if i can get sub 3.14" but honeslty it seems like quite a waste of ammo and id be more likely to skrew up than the gun would be
i have put 10 shots through the same hole just all i use is a bi-pod so i cant tell HOW accurate it is only how accurate i can shoot... i expect that ill be shooting a lot better with a heavier stock... we'll see
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