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Discussion Starter #1
I wanted to get things kick started by asking for everyone's opinion on the best all-around 9mm factory round. I own a Glock 17, although not the best sidearm, it serves its purpose well....which is to practice shooting accurately and precisely.

I sure hope this forum does not contain any 9mm vs. .45 debates due to the fact that I feel that this does not always progress to any higher enlightenment. But I speak only from an epiphany of things to come.
 

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I'd say that the Glock 17 is one of the best sidearms, but not one of the better competition pistols. It's light, it's durable, good recoil, it's accurate, i.e a good pistol to have in the field, where you have lots of other stuff to carry too.

As for the ammunition, what purpose do you intend to use the ammunition for? Target practice? Competitions? For competitive shooting, check out Norma and Lapua. Even if Federal FMJ match, CCI Blazer etc can be had for the same cost or cheaper, Norma and Lapua pretty much dominate the factory load scene in Scandinavia, Finland and Denmark, and they are pretty strong in Germany too. Lapua even has a 7.15g round that will give you around 400-410m/s muzzle velocity, and it's very accurate(And yes, the Glocks can handle that ammo safely).

"Home Defense"? Ugh, don't even get me started on that... Therefore, I won't give you any advice on that.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Nek,

I'm looking for a reliable round for tactical/military encounters and a round for competition or target. It would be wonderful if one single round gives excellent results for tactical/Military use and competition/target use but I realize that this is not an easy task to accomplish. What do you suggest, still Lapua and Norma?
 

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Yeah, Lapua and Norma would be good. Norma produces the swedish military standard 9x19mm rounds, M/39b, a FMJ round weighing in at 6.75g, tombac plated steel jacket and lead core. In the Glock 17, we get a muzzle velocity of around 385m/s. Works well in a military role, especially with its penetration, and it's fairly accurate too.
 

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Winchester SXT personal defense rounds and Speer Gold Dot rounds have proved to be quite accurate and good man-stoppers, but are predominantly (sorry Nek) home-defense rounds. But I don't know if "military" situations, as you stated, allow the use of hollow point rounds. What do you mean by "military"? Aren't you issued anything? Or do you mean that in the tactical, i.e. personal/home defense arena?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
What I mean by military/tactical is very similar to home defense. The only actual difference is that in home defense rounds are designed to do just that; defend and tactical rounds should permanently incapacitate your target with the fewest number of rounds possible. Optimum level would obviously be one round, assumin you did your part accuracy-wise, but there exist many variables that could affect this.

I haven't tried the Winchester SXT. I'll make sure and pick some up. Thanks.
 

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O.K., I won't digress into a .45 vs. 9mm argument. However, in my .45 I have had OUSTANDING results with the Federal Hydroshok loads which are also available in 9mm. Accuracy is almost match grade and terminal ballistics are dramatic. I have fortunately not had to use this load on any human targets, but it is extremely effective on the several feral pigs I have shot with it. The pigs mostly ranged from 100-275lbs. and shot placement was usually heart-lung area. No rounds exited, but I did find the bullet under the off-side hide on a few animals. Anyone that has hunted pigs will know that the gristle plate around a boar's shoulders is VERY similiar to body armor in toughness and I have always been able to reach the vital organs with this round. Feeding with this load has been flawless and functioning has been 100% reliable to-date. I have seen several write-ups on this load in other calibers and it has always been at the top in performance. You might want to consider it.

K2
 

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I know those old hollow points are good, but whats the deal with these new "frangible" bullets, the ones that vaporize upon contact with a non-organic object, limiting human penetration and stopping penetration if the round misses? How are they? Anyone have any experience with them? How is the actual penetration, even if it has only been done to ballistic gelatin? I'm interested; they sound pretty nice.

Many of the boxes proclaim they are SWAT issue rounds, although I doubt it. Am I wrong?


Jake
 

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Jake S:

We use fragable ammo for training but not in real situations.....I have heard about air marshalls using them because they are worried about over penetration.

Normally we just run regular ball ammo although I am a big fan of federal hydroshock hollowpoints.
 

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FLEA,

I also am a fan of the Hydrashock. You use the frangibles for training to minimize the risks presented from ricochets, right? Do you think, based on your training experience, that it would be a formidable defensive round?

I am somewhat surprised that you use hardball, as I thought that hollow points (like those old Black Talon loads) were preferred due to greater incapacitation and less penetration. If I remember correctly, at close range a 9mm bullet will outperform a .223, due to its slower velocity and increased stability.

And that fear that a 9mm hole in a plane will take it down in a blaze of "glory" Thank you, Hollywood. Considering a plane in WWII could be shot to hell with .50 caliber machine gun bullets and still make it back safely, i doubt that that 9mm, which makes a hole just over one sixth of an inch in diameter, would do anything more than make a little bit of noise.


Jake
 

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!

Jake S:

Correct about ricochets....as far as fragable ammo being used against people, keep in mind in todays age most of our concerns our of people with armor and thats why we steer away from hollowpoints and fragable ammo. The 223 is a bad close quarters bullet....not just by the weapons size (m4) but because the bullets like to bounce.

About the plane being brought down by a 9mm.....not likly but most those pilots aren't sober to begin with throw some wrenches in the works and you have some bad potential.

(sorry for all the pilots I offend)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Well looks like I will be comparing Norma, Win SXT and Federal Hydrashock. Thanks fellas, I have used Federal in a .45 format but wanted to hear someone's positive testimonial on 9x19 first.

Flea, Nek, K2,

What would you recommend for long range, but maintaining the optimal target neutralizing factor?
 

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Jake S:

One reason why airplanes survived gunfire so well during WW2 was that they were so insensitive compared to modern airplanes. A few holes in cloth or wooden structures isn't as bad for the aerodynamics as having a couple of holes in aluminium.
 

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Yeah, check on Cor-Bon. They make some really hot loads, and are obviously very powerful. I had forgotten about them. Buffalo Bore also makes some really power-packed .45 acp shells, however I do not believe they catalog 9mm yet.

Nek,
Yes, true, but I still must maintain that you would be hard-pressed to take down a commercial airliner with a nine millimeter handgun. You'd have a lot of noise, and your ears might pop a little bit from the change in cabin pressure, but I do not think a safe flight back to Earth would be compromised. Even if you put all 18 rounds from your Glock into the wall :) .
 

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Jake S:

No, but shooting through the airplane walls at high altitude could still cause a number of deaths, such as heart attacks and strokes triggered by the flight reactions(pun intended) when people become scared.

And never mind potential shrapnel from aluminium sheets ripped apart. Not all of it will travel outwards.
 

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Flight reactions- as opposed to "fight" reactions, I assume? Good joke though. And yes, if you open fire on the side of a crowded airplane while it is in flight, you will certainly scare the crap out of people. But what I am saying is that purely from a ballistic standpoint, a 9mm diameter hole in an airplane hull will not bring it down.

Another good 9mm tactical round are the old Winchester Black Talon loads. Those are no longer in production but you can still find them in gun shows and the like for about $40 dollars/50 rounds. Although I believe that they were pretty much the same as the newer Winchester SXT bullets I already offered for your consideration.
 

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My bad, those SXT bullets can't hold a candle to the Black Talons! Those Black Talon bullets are illegal for WInchester to produce, because they are hollow points with the ability to shoot right through a bullet-proof vest! Thats some serious hardware! If you can find some, go with the Talons! If not, try the next best thing, the Federal Hydra-shocks; thats what I keep in my home defense .45.

Jake
 

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Jake S:

Yes. In psychology, there are two primal responses and one other that partially triggers by the same factors as the other two, and in part by those other two. They are called the three F's(Two F's if you have a prude teacher/prof): Those are Fight, Flight and F**k. During certain situations, such as danger or mating, adrenaline flows into your bloodstream, raising the pain threshhold(That's the primary factor for why people gets stronger actually, the safety "cutoffs" for muscular exertion are removed, for example). Endorphines can also be released, giving you a sense of euphoria and joy. And as for the Black Talons, they only go through very light vests(class 1 or II-A), and lose lots of energy doing so, thus not penetrating deep at all.
 

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Found this out from a pilot friend of mine. WWII planes all had prop engines and flew at lower altitudes than modern planes that have jet engines, pressurized cabins and higher operating ceilings. A few 9mm holes in a commercial planes wall should not cause it fall apart or make a nosedive, however, the loss of cabin pressure will trigger a few red flags in the cockpit telling the pilot to make an emergency landing. Not to mention the potential for oxygen masks to pop down inside the cabin and all sorts of panic attacks from passengers. Therefore, from a ballistic standpoint, a 9mm will not bring down a plane, but the potential side effects may cause an emergency landing. Hope this is helpful.
 
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