Change of caliber with the development of new technologies?

4484 Views 9 Replies 5 Participants Last post by Nekekami, May 16, 2004

CM2k

Discussion Starter · May 13, 2004

As we see heavier armour being used (The Exo Skeletons MIT is developing, and as we develop those, soldiers will be able to carry more, and we'll see an upgrade in armour, no doubt. Not anytime soon, but within the next 25 or so years maybe), we'll see a change of caliber, yet again. I'm interested in wether or not we'll see a change to lighter rounds to penetrate (Like the 5.7mm), or wether we'll start seeing a use of heavier calibers (Like the 12.8mm).

While using a lighter round might reflect with the newer trend towards shorter ranges and lighter weapons (The US's plans to adopt the XM8 Carbine as a basic weapon), this will compromise their ability to provide accurate fire out to greater ranges, forcing either the use of fire support, or making things all around difficult. But, using a heavier round will increase clutter and weight, veering away from the Army's future plans of "Swarming" (Basically units, highly mobile, and very familiar with the terrain, will disperse in the country side and, when called, will all strike a position from a variety of positions and angles, then disperse again, making it diificult to counter attacks and create defenses).

From a logical point of view, it's diificult to decide. Lighter rounds would create more dependence on fire support, which is bad, while Heavier rounds will create unnecesary stress due to weight and clutter.

Personally, i'm all for a Heavier round. Aside from the fact that the concept of a 12.8mm assault rifle gets me hard, i'd prefer to be able to engage my opponents at a variety of distances, and I would prefer a weapon whose stopping power does not come from placing multiple rounds on target. Accuracy over volume.

What are your opinions on the matter? (And I am aware of the fact that in the next 25 to even 75 years, the opponents of most government armies will probably never even be able to get their hands on this kind of technology, but humour me, alright?)

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Jake S

· #2 · May 13, 2004

Well, the US government has recently been experimenting with the newly-developed Remington 6.8 SPC, which stands for Special Purpose Cartridge, if I am not mistaken. They have been using the M4/AR as a platform for tests. This is roughly a .270 caliber bullet in a necked down .30 Remington shell. So far, it has shown to be more powerful with a higher sectional density than the 5.56, with increased muzzle energy and flatter trajectory. Now this is for assault rifles and eventually probably belt-fed squad automatic weapons, and will probably not be introduced as a sniper rifle caliber. But concerning sniper calibers, I personally don't think we'll need to get any more powerful. The .338 Lapua, .50 BMG and new .408 CheyTac will probably be able to be made to shoot through most anything the enemy could be trying to protect themselves with. But thats just my opinion. And as you said, I do not think we'll be fighting anyone with technology as great as ours in the near future. I doubt Iraq, Afghanistan, etc will ever be able to afford to produce it on a widescale basis for their troops.

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Jeff_850

· #3 · May 14, 2004

unless main battle tanks and infantry fighting vehciles are considered body armor then i dont see the reason for more than a .338, .408 or .50
and they can go FAR heh
i could be wrong but i dont see any AFFORDABLE vests that infantry would be equipped with that would stop a SLAP round
if the enemy can barely afford the AK they wont be able to afford a vest
now then a well regulated and well funded military might be able to but im afraid im not the vest expert here so i dont really know much about what the vests can take

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CM2k

Discussion Starter · #4 · May 14, 2004

Can't drive a tank into a back street in Baghdad, i'm afraid, and you can't exactly get inside buildings either. And distance really isn't the issue, it's penetration power. A .338 is all nice and good for taking out PASGAT vests at a variety of distance, but I don't think they'll penetrate the plate AND the PASGAT vest (The M118 Special Ball has about a 80% chance of penetrating a PASGAT vest and plate at 100 meters, raises questions to their effectiveness when they lose 1/4 of their velocity).

And like I said, we're assuming that they WILL upgrade the armor from it's current point, and I imagine that it'll be something at least as heavy as a PASGAT vest and a plate.

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Chubs

· #5 · May 15, 2004

just a comment on vest and armour. i was reading a few days ago on this forum some where about armour being able to stop a .300 WM at 10 yards. yea it might stop the bullet but what about all that energy. im sure there would be some broken ribs and you'll proably fly a few feet from where you were standing. i could be wrong but thats just my opinion

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CM2k

Discussion Starter · #6 · May 15, 2004

FLY a few meters? No. FALL a few meters (Tumbling, spinning, etc.) Maybe. You need alot of energy to pick up a 150 pound man wearing a 35 pound vest carrying a 10 pound rifle, not even taking into account the other equipment he might be wearing.

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Chubs

· #7 · May 16, 2004

well yea he proably wouldnt "fly" but he might break some ribs dont you think?

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Jeff_850

· #8 · May 16, 2004

the armor stopping a .300 Win mag at 10m maybe... but i think that the vest will deform and the shooter is going to feel that they were hit
wouldnt be suprised there are some internal injuries from the punch of hte .300 Win Mag at 10m that is over 3500 ft-lbs of energy from the 190 gr match load.. thats gotta hurt

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Jake S

· #9 · May 16, 2004

I was reading an article about new Russian Spetznaz armoured vest trials. These vests could stop the Dragunov 7.62x54R bullet (a standard FMJ, not AP) at 10 meters. However, from the energy transfer, they would be rendered combat ineffective for more than 30 minutes, and would require serious medical attention to treat the internal wounds delivered from the blunt force of the bullet impacting (internal bleeding/hemorraging, organ damage, broken ribs, and one hell of a nasty bruise

) Upon impact (yes the Ruskies tested their vests while people were wearing them :shock: ) the target was knocked backward a step and down, and was unable to get up, or even think straight for about 15-20 minutes, only fully regaining his composure after 30 minutes. And remember, this was with a 7.62x54 shell, not a .300 WM! I would venture that the .300 would to quite a bit more to the vest wearer, and combat ineffectiveness would exceed one hour.

But, as was stated before, the major industrial and economic powers haven't fought one another in a bit, as we are all preoccupied with attacking smaller poor countries whose idea of "body armor" is hiding in a mosque...

Jake

(whoops, did I let my political views interfere with my reasoning

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Nekekami

· #10 · May 16, 2004

The armour plates in our vests doesn't deform as much as it does shatter, thus dispersing the energy of the bullet far more effectively. And yes, you'll be knocked out, but still alive..

Jake S:

As for the Spetsnaz vest trials, don't believe everything you read. Having met, and even practiced with a couple of them when they were over for an informal visit, we had lots of opportunities to talk to them, and they fired against cows and pigs wearing the plates. But like all other unit, they have an image to uphold, and the image of Spetsnaz is that they eat barbed wire like we eat candy, particularly after a lot of western propaganda.

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