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Discussion Starter #1
I found this at another site. It's not exactly sniper related, but worth it.




Guns don't kill people, idiots kill themselves.

The following mind-boggling attempt at a crime spree in Washington USA
appeared to be the robber's first (and last), due to his lack of a
previous record of violence, and his terminally stupid choices:

1. His target was H&J Leather & Firearms, A gun shop specializing in
handguns.

2. The shop was full of customers - firearms customers.

3. To enter the shop, the robber had to step around a marked police
patrol car parked at the front door.

4. A uniformed officer was standing at the counter, having coffee
before work. Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a
hold-up, and fired a few wild shots from a .22 target pistol. The
officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, the police officer with a
9mm Glock 17, the clerk with a .50 Desert Eagle, assisted by several
customers who also drew their guns, several of whom also fired, The
robber was pronounced dead at the scene by Paramedics. Crime scene
investigators located 47 expended cartridge cases in the shop. The
subsequent autopsy revealed 23 gunshot wounds. Ballistics identified
rounds from 7 different weapons. No one else was hurt in the exchange of fire.
Here we are at the beginning of March and we already may have the
2005 winner of the Darwin Award. This guy is going to be hard to beat.
 

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Dear Lord this is why I love 2nd Amendment. It helps the world weed out the idiots.
 

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This one is pretty old, actually. I read it in a copy of "The Darwin Awards" that was published in 1999. Interestingly enough.

That said:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :lol:
 

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re

Have to feel sorry for the poor guy who had to clear that up, it must have been one Hell of a mess.
 

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47 shots fired and only 23 hit the suspect? What we clearly have here is poor gun control. There should have been a much higher hit count.

How many of those hits were from the 50 cal hand cannon?
 

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badshot said:
47 shots fired and only 23 hit the suspect? What we clearly have here is poor gun control. There should have been a much higher hit count.

How many of those hits were from the 50 cal hand cannon?
You would be surprised at the surprising lack of accuracy. I remember a shoot out that happened with two patrol officers and one bad guy . The two police officers fired I think 39 rounds, 3 of them hit. In the heat of a gun fight, things are not as easy as when shooting at paper.... there really should be a more enphesis on combat tactics for LE, instead of spray and pray.

MEL
 

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badshot said:
47 shots fired and only 23 hit the suspect? What we clearly have here is poor gun control. There should have been a much higher hit count.

How many of those hits were from the 50 cal hand cannon?
Youve also got to remember that the target was probably flopping around like a wet fish. Moving targets are always harder to hit.
 

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Mel I will be finding out how I am trained for LE firefights in the coming months as I am currently going to a police academy. 39 shots and only 3 hit is not good. Where did the other 36 bullets go?
 

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Your guess is as good as mine!!! If memory serves me correctly, they both had Glock 17's.... and aparently needed all that extra capacity.

MEL
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I read one time that a study was done and LE are notoriously bad shots. From what I have seen during my short time with the local sheriff department it is true. There is more the being a cop than carrying a gun. In fact LE really does not do very much weapons or tatical training in the basic academy compared to what they should do.

The same study found that civilans that are in shootings to defend them selves have a higher percentage of hitting their target. This is self defense, not Donnie dirtbag shooting his buddy over drugs.

One static I heard but can not confirm is that police snipers hit their targets 25% of the time. This is several years old, and I think the LE training is much better now than then.

I think this was Massad Ayobe books that I got this infoabout 15 years ago, but not sure.

I can say that most of my coworkers are pretty good shots. For one the coures of fire for the handgun is over 50% at 25 yards, from diffrent positions, and timed. Many of them hunt as well. The topic of conversation at shift change is usually one of three subjects, hunting, fishing or chew. :shock: Thank goodness I don't work with a bunch of rednecks.
 

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I believe the national average of poolice shootings is around 40% accuracy, but I think it would be very unfair to say it is due to a lack of training. Yes, if LEOs spent an hour a day practicing tactical fire-fights, they would have a much higher hit ratio, but considering that firing their weapon is, for the most part, a minute detail, it wouldn't make sense to have them train so much.

I don't think anyone would disagree with the notion that such heavy training would be necessary to ensure much better hit ratios: regarding the two officers who fired 39 shots, you have to remember that some of those shots may have been to cover one officer while the other maneuvered, some of those shots were blocked by an obstacle (i.e. the engine block of the car the BG was hiding behind), and then of course you have your general misses. Keep in mind that these fellas are in a very stressful life and death situation, and unlike soldiers, they don't undergo such experiences (or the training to handle them) on a regular basis.

The reason why self-defense shootings are more likely to be higher is because civvies don't get into firefights with BGs: LEOs have to approach BGs in any and all circumstances, while a civvie can simply stay out of trouble. Only when trouble directly confronts the civvie must he get involved, and at that time, he's confronting the BG at an average of seven yards, and the BG isn't likely taking cover nor maneuvering, so it makes instinctual shot placement much easier.

Do I think cops should practice as much firearms training as possible? Of course, but let's not jump to conclusions about their abilities unless we can first determine that it's nothing but incompetence (which it isn't) that leads to such poor hit ratios.

Scatch Maroo
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Scatch Maroo said:
Do I think cops should practice as much firearms training as possible? Of course, but let's not jump to conclusions about their abilities unless we can first determine that it's nothing but incompetence (which it isn't) that leads to such poor hit ratios.

Scatch Maroo
I didn't mean to imply it was incopentance, although reading back I can see whaer you got that impression. I was mearly stating the police are not as proficiant and well trained with firearms as many people believe. I worked for the local Sheriff Department for 5 years as a correctional officer. We were issued firearms and carried them for transports. In fact the last shooting invloving my former department involved a correctional officer. (not me) Also my stats were years old, I don't doubt they are better now with better training.

BTW in LE circles you don't lay down covering fire when your partner moves. The bulletts can go to many places. You only shoot when there is a clear target and no bystanders. Unlike the military collateral damage is not tolorated at all.

A funny not on that, there is a story about the Rodney King riots. Apparetnly a LAPD officer was going into a building and asked some Marines to cover him meaning to watch his back. In true military fashion the opened up on the building to the surprise of the cop. :lol:
 

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ekaphoto said:
BTW in LE circles you don't lay down covering fire when your partner moves. The bulletts can go to many places. You only shoot when there is a clear target and no bystanders. Unlike the military collateral damage is not tolorated at all.
Well said--I think I'd still be quick to take a shot at a BG as he pops up from behind his sandbags if my partner were out in the open though... would that be considered cover-fire, or more of a clear shot? I can't imagine a department not wanting me to fire simply because he's hiding behind something (if I feel I can get the shot anyway) and there's no one around?

But again there are departments like Detroit and any in New Jersey that demand those useless EFMJ rounds, so that's why I'm asking. :(

Scatch Maroo
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Scratch,

That would be a judgment call that would be hard to make. Just remember is not what you do it's how your write the report. :twisted: Just kidding, you could make a case for that, and shooting through a barrier can be ok as long as you KNOW there is no bystander.
 

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badshot said:
47 shots fired and only 23 hit the suspect? What we clearly have here is poor gun control. There should have been a much higher hit count.
Have you ever been in a shoot out? I have... many many times. You tend to shoot ALOT faster than you would during a training day at the range... some times just out of anger or fear.

BC
 
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