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Man this thing ended up in the weeds a bit. No one has really answered the original post (which I'm curious as well.).

It would be helpful with a chart. I know some of the Remy models feature a B/C stock, some the HS Precision, some fluted, some short action, some long, some threaded, some 5R, etc. I'm sure if you overlay all these features/factors, there's probably an OEM stock number list a mile long.

But can someone lay out the basic/major features of each model? I ask because invariably, I get people asking me what's a good price for different Remy models and it's hard to keep up. I think all of them now feature the X-Mark "Pro" trigger.

As far as factory (mass produced) barrels, if you're going to evaluate barrel build as part of performance, you're always going to be disappointed. Factory (mass produced) guns have to be able to accommodate a larger set of ammunition and therefore a longer throat makes perfect sense. Not as preferable to someone who hand loads, and certainly not preferable to someone who's shooting factory ammo that has a shorter length.

There are a lot of aftermarket barrels (now) for Glocks, but my warning to guys who always want to run them is be careful what you wish for. Glock barrels have sloppier tolerances for a reason. They're made to go bang and cycle with a very wide range of ammo. You can stuff just about anything into one and it'll make noise.

Why do you think Remington doesn't use an integral recoil lug? Manufacturing cost. They can mass produce lugs and then put them on a myriad of actions and streamline production and therefore offer their products at a lower cost.

My current hunting rig is a 700 5R with fluted barrel and first trip out, it was grouping around .7 MOA with 180 grain Premier Accutip. Good enough for it's purposes. Could you dial in some custom/match ammo and make it shoot tighter? I'm sure. There's a lot of things that could be improved on it, but for what it's intended, it performs admirably for the cost/price range.
 

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Factory (mass produced) guns have to be able to accommodate a larger set of ammunition and therefore a longer throat makes perfect sense. Not as preferable to someone who hand loads, and certainly not preferable to someone who's shooting factory ammo that has a shorter length.
Like you said...it is not preferable to those that hand load or those that shoot factory ammo. Really the only ones that it is preferable to is the lawyers. The throat could be much shorter and still SAAIAM factory round out there...so for anyone shooting the long throat does not make sense.

As far as glocks go...you are exactly right. I would not carry a glock with anything but a factory barrel just for the reliability. I have had rounds that wouldn't gauge that still fired no problem in my glock. The sloppy chamber is not great for brass life or accuracy...but it is excellent for reliability. I actually had one of my custom glock barrels reamed to glock specs because the chamber was too tight to feed right. However...I am more concerned with accuracy in my bolt guns and therefore want a chamber that is of manageable length.
 

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Like you said...it is not preferable to those that hand load or those that shoot factory ammo. Really the only ones that it is preferable to is the lawyers. The throat could be much shorter and still SAAIAM factory round out there...so for anyone shooting the long throat does not make sense.

As far as glocks go...you are exactly right. I would not carry a glock with anything but a factory barrel just for the reliability. I have had rounds that wouldn't gauge that still fired no problem in my glock. The sloppy chamber is not great for brass life or accuracy...but it is excellent for reliability. I actually had one of my custom glock barrels reamed to glock specs because the chamber was too tight to feed right. However...I am more concerned with accuracy in my bolt guns and therefore want a chamber that is of manageable length.
Agreed, but you're asking the rifle (and the manufacturer) to operate outside it's marketing purpose. It's not custom. Custom comes with a different set of assets and liabilities. Custom usually involves tighter tolerances, more attention to detail, fitment, better components, and ultimately, better performance (all things being apples/apples). It also means higher costs, and less flexibility.

So could Remington ream to something less "tolerable?" I'm telling you what you already know, that a slightly longer throat will accommodate ammo that's longer than specs, but also accommodate ammo that's shorter than specs (albeit with "jump" involved). I'm guessing that either the lawyers, or the bean counters decided that accommodating jump is more preferable to jam.

Could Remington release a mass produced rifle that's SPECIFICALLY chambered to perform best with a certain type of ammo (i.e. their own ammo? Or even more specific, a line of their ammo in a certain bullet species?) Sure....it'd just make it inflexible. Would it perform better? Probably so.

The only way to normalize such things to gain a clear comparison is in terms of value (i.e. how much performance do you get for the money spent) and even then, people value different things more than others. Some people would value the flexibility over an extra 1/4 MOA of accuracy. Some would not. Out of all these marketing inputs and outputs, the big production manufacturers try to field a product that maximizes the ol' revenue equation (units sold x profit margin - returns and warranty costs = total profit).

It's very very hard to house a "custom" shop under the same umbrella as a "high production" shop, even if you call them different companies. They have obviously different business models and mindsets. Which is why Remington concedes the high end custom market and sticks with the middle. Ruger is trying to cut into that upper crust market, we'll see if it works. Savage is content with the bottom of the market. McMillan, Surgeon, Accuracy Intl, and even further out GA Precison, Tac Ops, etc, are content at the very top end of the market.

Very few companies can field products across the whole spectrum, and do it well for long periods of time (and be competitive in all those segments).
 

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I tried to answer but things were quickly derailed by certain people so I'll try again.

So let's break it down piece by piece again.


Ive been doing some reading and from what I can gather is the SPS and P models are the same other than the P comes with a HS stock that is good from the factory and the SPS will need to have a aftermarket stock.
As far as what Remington tells us, and what insiders say this is true.

What about the LR model?
The LR model is long action only last I checked, the P can be both long and short, but all information is that they are the same quality. IIRC it is the SPS Long Range, but I can't be 100% certain
Is the factory bell and Carlson stock as good as the HS stock that comes on the P model?
Bell and Carlson stocks have been known to have poorer fit and finish, the HS, and lacks a couple of features of the HS, no palm swell on the pistol grip, or fore end. That said in my opinion they function the same, in fact the model that comes with the Long Range is what I have on my rifle, only I have the short action one. I had to modify it a bit to get my first trigger to work and the bottom medal to sit in it right. I would assume you would be less likely to run into this issue from Remington.

Is the barrel on the LR model better than the barrel on the other two models?
Doubtfull, they'll be more or less the same crappy Remington factory barrels. You may get one that shoots you may not, you may get one that copper fouls like a mother you may not. It's a risk you take. The only differences seem to be the Remington 5R milspec barrels, and the Senderos.

Is the stock on the LR as good as the stock that comes on the P model?
ergonomically for you, hard to say. The palm swell is different and the fore end is different on the two so you'll have to decide what you like. I would bet you'll have to come up with some way to raise comb height on both. But function wise, as long as you don't get a dude and the barrel is free floated they should function the same.

Just trying to figure out what's the best bang for my buck out of these three.
Having been in your position, and done it, and if I had to do it over, I would get a Howa. But if I had to get a Remington I would get the 5r Milspec.
 

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Agreed, but you're asking the rifle (and the manufacturer) to operate outside it's marketing purpose. It's not custom. Custom comes with a different set of assets and liabilities. Custom usually involves tighter tolerances, more attention to detail, fitment, better components, and ultimately, better performance (all things being apples/apples). It also means higher costs, and less flexibility.

So could Remington ream to something less "tolerable?" I'm telling you what you already know, that a slightly longer throat will accommodate ammo that's longer than specs, but also accommodate ammo that's shorter than specs (albeit with "jump" involved). I'm guessing that either the lawyers, or the bean counters decided that accommodating jump is more preferable to jam.

Could Remington release a mass produced rifle that's SPECIFICALLY chambered to perform best with a certain type of ammo (i.e. their own ammo? Or even more specific, a line of their ammo in a certain bullet species?) Sure....it'd just make it inflexible. Would it perform better? Probably so.

The only way to normalize such things to gain a clear comparison is in terms of value (i.e. how much performance do you get for the money spent) and even then, people value different things more than others. Some people would value the flexibility over an extra 1/4 MOA of accuracy. Some would not. Out of all these marketing inputs and outputs, the big production manufacturers try to field a product that maximizes the ol' revenue equation (units sold x profit margin - returns and warranty costs = total profit).

It's very very hard to house a "custom" shop under the same umbrella as a "high production" shop, even if you call them different companies. They have obviously different business models and mindsets. Which is why Remington concedes the high end custom market and sticks with the middle. Ruger is trying to cut into that upper crust market, we'll see if it works. Savage is content with the bottom of the market. McMillan, Surgeon, Accuracy Intl, and even further out GA Precison, Tac Ops, etc, are content at the very top end of the market.

Very few companies can field products across the whole spectrum, and do it well for long periods of time (and be competitive in all those segments).

I am not asking for a custom chamber from a factory rifle. If I can't reach the lands with 220gr smk's loaded as long as possible then no one will reach the lands ever. All I am asking for is a reasonable chamber that will accommodate all factory ammo without reaming it so deep as to make it impossible to ever reach the lands with any bullet. There is an in between ground in this situation. COAL with 175's in my rifle is well past 3.00" and still doesn't hit the lands!!! This is somewhere around 1/4" longer throat than the maximum Saami for 308. So If they want to be safe then ream the chamber 0.010 past maximum SAAMI and it will feed any factory ammo that is within specs.

Remington is not trying to accommodate factory ammo by reaming their chambers long. They are trying to make sure that it is not possible for a hand loader to reach the lands so that they can protect themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
I tried to answer but things were quickly derailed by certain people so I'll try again.

So let's break it down piece by piece again.


As far as what Remington tells us, and what insiders say this is true.

The LR model is long action only last I checked, the P can be both long and short, but all information is that they are the same quality. IIRC it is the SPS Long Range, but I can't be 100% certain Bell and Carlson stocks have been known to have poorer fit and finish, the HS, and lacks a couple of features of the HS, no palm swell on the pistol grip, or fore end. That said in my opinion they function the same, in fact the model that comes with the Long Range is what I have on my rifle, only I have the short action one. I had to modify it a bit to get my first trigger to work and the bottom medal to sit in it right. I would assume you would be less likely to run into this issue from Remington.

Doubtfull, they'll be more or less the same crappy Remington factory barrels. You may get one that shoots you may not, you may get one that copper fouls like a mother you may not. It's a risk you take. The only differences seem to be the Remington 5R milspec barrels, and the Senderos.

ergonomically for you, hard to say. The palm swell is different and the fore end is different on the two so you'll have to decide what you like. I would bet you'll have to come up with some way to raise comb height on both. But function wise, as long as you don't get a dude and the barrel is free floated they should function the same.



Having been in your position, and done it, and if I had to do it over, I would get a Howa. But if I had to get a Remington I would get the 5r Milspec.
What model Howa? I've also been looking into the tikka t3.
 

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My point was that quality or performance valuations outside of cost are either meaningless, or disingenuous.

It's not profound for me to say "The Kia Soul is **** compared to the Mercedes G500."

You get what you pay for, and for the most part, I think the Remy 700's are a good value. You guys are comparing barrel blemishes and issues from a gun that costs $500-$1200 against barrels that cost $400-$600 alone.

The valuation should be based on cost involved.

You can fly Spirit Airlines and moan about how the seats don't recline and that they have fees for everything and they're always late, but the fact is, you get what you pay for. Spirit is awful, but THEY'RE CHEAP. Like, SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper.
 
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What model Howa? I've also been looking into the tikka t3.
The Tika is another good rifle, although a bit different. The Howa is nice since is very similar to the R700.

What are you looking to do with this, and have you decided on caliber?

The one big drawback with howa is they don't come with good stocks, so buying a barreled action and a stock is the way I'd go. And it would run around $1000 for a decent set up that way
 

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Discussion Starter #49
The Tika is another good rifle, although a bit different. The Howa is nice since is very similar to the R700.

What are you looking to do with this, and have you decided on caliber?

The one big drawback with howa is they don't come with good stocks, so buying a barreled action and a stock is the way I'd go. And it would run around $1000 for a decent set up that way
It will be a mostly a hunting set up but would also like to do some long distance target shooting. I'm thinking the 308 will be the best caliber for me. I will be shooting mostly pigs and whitetail. I would like to buy a rifle that won't need the barrel or stock replaced.
 

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It will be a mostly a hunting set up but would also like to do some long distance target shooting. I'm thinking the 308 will be the best caliber for me. I will be shooting mostly pigs and whitetail. I would like to buy a rifle that won't need the barrel or stock replaced.
The Howas will certainly need a stock replacement, unless they've changed what they used since I last looked.

Tika, I've only been around a couple and don't know a whole lot about them.

If you can afford it the Remington 5R milspec, seems to be better then the regular 700p, and sps variety. A lot of people really like them. They have a HS stock, but one that's a little different then the one on the 700p. Less pronounced palm swell and a little shorter. At least that's how it felt to me.

They come in 24" and 20" for hunting those would be better, and both are capable of making hits out to 1000 Yards.

The 26" barrels are a little unwieldy when hunting, in my opinion and experience.
 

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why send a factory barrel to get worked over by a smith? Makes no sense at all. My smith charges $500 for a match chamber. A good barrel costs $300. $800 is money well worth spent when the results start showing up in field use and on paper. Every one of my rifles got a custom barrel upgrade. I don't know about everyone else, but I like to be able to depend on my equipment when it matters most.
 

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Oh, after rereading through some of this nonsense I realized something.

If you want a 308 the 700 LR won't work as it is long action only and not chambered in 308.


So that's out of the question.

So you're back to the Tika, which I have very limited time behind, A Remington of which I would only recommend the 5r Milspec, or something else.

Weatherby possibly, their Vanguard series is made from the Howa action. I have no idea on the quality of their stocks anymore, the Vanguards I've been around are quite old.

http://www.weatherby.com/products/rifles/vanguard.html?caliber=52&p=2

Here is an interesting one though, the Weatherby Vanguard H-Bar Range Certified:

http://www.weatherby.com/products/rifles/vanguard/vanguardr-h-bar-rc.html

The Remington has no specific accuracy Guarantee, I don't know about the Tika, but this one does, sub moa, with a test target. 22" barrel would be a nice comprimise for hunting.

The barrel is a little light, somewhere between a Varmint profile and Sporter profile, so for heavy rapid fire target shooting like PRS it might not work the greatest, but for hunting it will be lighter.

Haha, actually just kind of stumbled on this looking at options that seems like a nice rifle for around $1,100, similar in cost to the 5r milspec, with a few different specs.

That's an option, I don't have any experience with that particular rifle and model though so I would advise getting one in your hand and see what you think.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Oh, after rereading through some of this nonsense I realized something.

If you want a 308 the 700 LR won't work as it is long action only and not chambered in 308.


So that's out of the question.

So you're back to the Tika, which I have very limited time behind, A Remington of which I would only recommend the 5r Milspec, or something else.

Weatherby possibly, their Vanguard series is made from the Howa action. I have no idea on the quality of their stocks anymore, the Vanguards I've been around are quite old.

Weatherby | Vanguard

Here is an interesting one though, the Weatherby Vanguard H-Bar Range Certified:

Weatherby | Vanguard® RC Varmint

The Remington has no specific accuracy Guarntee, I don't know about the Tika, but this one does, sub moa, with a test target. 22" barrel would be a nice comprimise for hunting.

The barrel is a little light, somewhere between a Varmint profile and Sporter profile, so for heavy rapid fire target shooting like PRS it might not work the greatest, but for hunting it will be lighter.

Haha, actually just kind of stumbled on this looking at options that seems like a nice rifle for around $1,100, similar in cost to the 5r milspec, with a few different specs.

That's an option, I don't have any experience with that particular rifle and model though so I would advise getting one in your hand and see what you think.
Well damn now I really don't know what i want.
 

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Well damn now I really don't know what i want.
Base it on Primary need mostly.

Dual purpose hunting/target rifles are hard to do, and generally you get a rifle that's good at both, but great at neither. Unless you go custom.

This is for various reasons, weight, manuverability, ergonomics, and others.

Even the scope and bullet choices don't always overlap.


What will benefit you greatly is if you can get a hold of these rifles, because the ergonomics of them are all very different. Get behind them, get in the positions you will be hunting in and see how comfortable they are, cycle the action and dry fire them (if the shop allows it, some do not) drop the bottom metal, pull the bolt out.

See if you prefer the way one works over the others.

Then go from there, it sounds like you want something that will be ready to go with little modification, to do that you'll be in the $1,000 area for just the rifle. Even then they might need some slight modifications to get them fit to you, which is why getting hands on is preferable to buying blind.
 

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Well damn now I really don't know what i want.
To further convolute this thread I will add that you should also look into the 700P LTR and Ruger RPR as viable options. If I were to build a hunting rifle that I could use for target shooting I would strongly consider the LTR due to its portability and out of the box accuracy. If I were going to build a target rifle that I could also hunt with, I'd strongly consider the RPR due to its out of the box features.

As to the Remington barrel issue I agree that when compared to a custom chambered, hand lapped barrel they are relatively "crappy", but that's not a fair comparison as others have pointed out.

I don't know much about Howa so I can't give you an informed opinion but I will add that a Tikka Tactical is a good option, but once I get to that price point I would start to look at full/partial customs as an option as well as the FN SPR.

As you can see deciding on rifle is not an easy task for the beginner, my advice to you is to write out the maximum price you will pay and the features you would like, then keep asking questions.

~Ben
 
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