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I will go with TBA will be in my top list. When I save up the money I will proceed with putting a down payment so that they can get to work on it. This will be sometime in the future as I still need to pick up several books and do some more research, find me a range etc. etc.

Thanks a mil all anymore info will be great :)

CkC
 

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That's awsome, you shouldn't be dissapointed with your rifle. What scope are you thinking about putting on there?
 

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If you are going with a TBA M40A1, I think there is only one option! A Unertl/USO USMC scope

MEL
 

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Hey... im curious... why get an M-40A1 when you can get an M-40A3 for 545 dollors more? As far as i can see... the M-40A1 from TBA does not have an MOA garentee. There M-40A3 has a .25 MOA garentee with factory match ammo... so with quality hand loaded match ammo you can expect under .25 MOA. Not to mention its simply a much better rifle. The Marine Corps official standard issue rifle is the M-40A3 with the McMillan A4 stock now. Allthough... the Marine Corps is now in the process of making the McMillan A5 stock standard on the M-40A3. For specialized units... the Marine Corps has built up long action .300 Win Mag M-40A3 style rifles with the A5 stock... these are called the M-40A5. TBA makes those as well. I have used M-40A1's and M-40A3's... and to be honest i like the M-40A3 alot more... it is just alot better rifle made with modern technology and new... better... techniques.

M-40A1 : $2750 (Unertl type scope mount with lugs and standard 30mm or 1” rings) http://www.texasbrigadearmory.com/m40a1.htm
M-40A3 : $3295 (.25 MOA garentee, USMC 1913 base and your choice of rings) http://www.texasbrigadearmory.com/m40a3.htm
UNERTL USMC MST-100 Scope : (POR) installed *from TBA*
UNERTL USMC MST-100 Scope : $2500 not installed *from US Optics* http://www.usoptics.com/sub_pages/scope ... ecordID=10

*Chambering available in 6.5/.270/.300 WSM, .223 WSM, .300 Win Mag, 7mm/.300/.338 Ultra Mag, .223 WSSM, 6.5-.284, any wildcat or other standard caliber - Add $150 to rifle price*

BC
 

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As far as I understand it, all the TBA rifles carry the .25, but I may be mistaken.

While I agree the M40A3 is a better rifle, some people really just want and like the M40A1.... and by all means, they should get what they want if they are paying the money.

MEL
 

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Longshot,

Good luck bud. I trust that Mike has cleaned up his stuff and perhaps now is back running at full capacity. He moved couple months back.

I live closer to them but don't really utilize their services due to complications there have been with them and some SWAT buddies of mine.

Mike does exceptional work, don't get me wrong. But given the choice, I stray to other smiths....even if they are out of state.

my .02
 

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Hey all,
I have a few of TBA's rifles and one of them is a 20" M40-A1 in 308. This one was built for me a few years ago and I've used it to go packing in the foothills region of North Western Alberta for moose.Wait time on that rifle was like 9 months but worth the wait. The rifle has the .25 MOA promise and it makes good on it's word.

That rifle weighs in at about 10 pounds with all the trimmings {scope,bipod,ammo cheeck pad,ect}
A regular M40-A1 comes in the 12-14lbs with a full 24" barrel


The M40-A3 comes in at about 17LBS by itself. Add a scope and few other goddies and your pushing the 20 pound mark. Not my idea of a good time,but hey if thats your thing. One of my professors in university always said don't hit yourself on the head with a hammer unless it feels good':|'
that one is your call.
I 've found personally {that reads my personal preference} that I don't much care for the A-2 A-3 or A-4 series of stocks from Mcmillan. I find them to be a little cumbersom. I've worked extensivly with the Canadian C3-A1 and was fine. I owned a savage 10 with the A2 for about 10mins and decided it did not feel as good at home as it did in the store. I have friends that swear by them. I've not had the chance to really check out the A5 yet.

just somthing to think about. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Kenshin
 

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That certainly is the one advantage the A1 (HTG) stock has over all the other tactical stocks: it has much less girth about it. Its slim, trim and functional. Not as stable in prone & supported positions, but better in unsupported and offhand shooting

MEL
 

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I agree.

The A-series of McMillans were not really designed for hunting or hiking long trails.

Even thought the A4 will now be used for similar tasks by USMC SSPs but they are issued these and have no choice.

Still it might come down to preferance. I like heaver rifles and don't mind lugging it around. But its my personal preferance.
 

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First, before you put that down payment on the TBA, you should check this out.http://snipersparadise.com/sniperstore/gasp2005/gasp.htm
Also, you may want to give USO a call if you're thinking about the MST-100. I believe they no longer have any and do not have any plans to build any more. The USMC is undergoing trials for a new scope and this is why the MST is on its way out.
Not taking anything away from TBA, but if you don't give the guys at GAP a serious consideration you are doing yourself an injustice. After all why not have your M40A1 built by a smith that rebuilt every M40A1 in the corps, and was partly responsible for the development for the M40A3? http://www.gaprecision.net/content/aboutus.php
Something to consider.
 

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He said he was trying to get a rifle as close to possible as a real M-40A1... if i remember correctly. The Snipers Paradise "M-40A1" GASP is not a replica... its a clone. Meaning it looks the same... but the spec's are not the same. It might look the same to an untrained eye... it might shoot the same as well... but its not the same. I know TBA builds theres to USMC specs.
 

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First of all, it is a clone. I didn't see in his post (this post) where he said he wanted an "exact" replica. Very few people want an "exact" replica because they realize that some of the components are not very good. Looks are not what matter; performance is. And an actual M40A1 will not perform as well as a "clone". To the unexperienced, it's the results that count not the aesthetics.
If someone wants an exact replica for collecting purposes, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that, to each their own. But if someone wants to buy an exact replica because they think it is going to shoot the best, that is wrong. Old technology is old technology. Besides, remember that the military doesn't buy the best, it buys the cheapest.
If you were to rebuild a classic muscle car for example. You can have a 100 point car, and it will be an exact replica of what it was on the dealers showroom floor. However, it will not perform even close to what a modern "clone" would.
When it comes to shooting in the real world the only thing that matters is performance and reliability. I pointed out a very viable option for him to look at. If he doesn't want that option, that is up to him. I may have missed his other thread point out exactly what he wanted. I wanted to make sure that he had his bases covered. There is nothing wrong with TBA, I'm sure they make great rifles, but for me, they are not my first, or second choice.
 

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Scopes said:
First of all, it is a clone.
Yes... thats what i said it was.

Scopes said:
Very few people want an "exact" replica because they realize that some of the components are not very good. Looks are not what matter; performance is. And an actual M40A1 will not perform as well as a "clone". To the unexperienced, it's the results that count not the aesthetics.
If the guy was going for performance he wouldnt be buying an A1 at all... and when did the unexperienced care about results than aesthetics more than the experienced? :?

Scopes said:
Besides, remember that the military doesn't buy the best, it buys the cheapest.
I honestly dont see how you think an M-40A3 is the cheapest option out there... it doesnt leave Quantico Armory unless it fires under .25 MOA 5 shot groups with standard issue M-118LR ammo... not to mention a standard issue $2,500 scope... and the A4 stock costs more than most rifles do.

Scopes said:
There is nothing wrong with TBA, I'm sure they make great rifles, but for me, they are not my first, or second choice.
Built to USMC Specs... comes with a garentee of .25 MOA 5 shot groups or better with factory ammo. Doesnt get much better than that...

BC
 

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BC,
First, it is not really fair to hijack this guys post but since you insist.
Yes, you said it was a clone BUT, he never said if he wanted a clone or exact replica, and I never said, the GASP was an exact replica.
His one and only post in this thread

I will go with TBA will be in my top list. When I save up the money I will proceed with putting a down payment so that they can get to work on it. This will be sometime in the future as I still need to pick up several books and do some more research, find me a range etc. etc.

Thanks a mil all anymore info will be great

CkC
Besides in his post he says "Thanks a mil all anymore info will be great" I am providing that "anymore info..." part.

You can buy an A1 "clone" and still have all the performance you need.

to quote you

and when did the unexperienced care about results than aesthetics more than the experienced?
The unexperienced cares about result and aesthetics because a) they are susceptible to marketing and claims that are possibly blown out of proportion and b) many times care about what a rifle looks like, or they want a rifle that looks like a tactical rifle, regardless of it's capabilities. Now this is no reflection on TBA, but I can name at least three smiths that will guarantee me .25 MOA with their rifles. Besides, if a person cannot shoot .25, how are they going to enforce the warranty?

I honestly dont see how you think an M-40A3 is the cheapest option out there...
Its easy, it is not the best SWS by far. Accuracy international and Sako are two rifles that are much better than the M40A3 by a long shot (pardon the pun) The M40A1 and A3 are platforms that have been turned into SWS, the AI and Sako (there are more, I am using those as an example) are built as a SWS from the ground up.

it doesnt leave Quantico Armory unless it fires under .25 MOA 5 shot groups with standard issue M-118LR ammo...
Let's ask Eric Reid over at GAP. Since he has rebuilt every M40A1 in the marine corps AND assisted in the research and development of the A3, he should know. Because I have been told differently by he and other marines.

not to mention a standard issue $2,500 scope... and the A4 stock costs more than most rifles do.
a standard issue MST-100 from USO is $2500 for you and me. The USMC pays about half of that, if that much. And it is such a great scope that USO stopped producing them because the USMC is looking for something else. I will be the first to say that USO makes some of the best optics in the world, and I know optics, but the USMC scope is, again, outdated.

and as far as the A-4 stock goes
http://www.mcmfamily.com/mfsinc_n/price_list.html

$425 for you and me. That is without all of the accessories, but again, that is not the government price. Most rifles, cost more than that, even the Savage.

Built to USMC Specs... comes with a garentee of .25 MOA 5 shot groups or better with factory ammo. Doesnt get much better than that...
Yes, it does get better than that. There are many options, and I'm only including bolt actions and those in the tactical realm, that can match or beat that. I have an HD A191 (.300 WM Navy rifle) that does .25 all day long. And if you question it, you are questioning Jeff Hicks from HD, not me, as he is the one who shot it first. So TBA does not have the corner on quality or accuracy.

BC, I appreciate your enthusiasm, I just don't understand where you are coming from. Do you own a GAP, HD and TBA and of the three the TBA outshoots all of them? I know because I have the above and I speak from experience. Teach a man to fish and let him go at it. It's LONGSHOT_ZERO's decision, let him decided.
 

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If the Marine Corps went with a SAKO or AI rifle they would have to retrain all there armorers... and all there snipers... not going to happen. And when the vast majority of sniper shots are well under 300 yards... why would you need a .338 Lapua anyway? .308 does very well out to 800 yards and there are numerous confirmed kills at just over 1,000 yards with the M-40A3.

The MST-100 is outdated? Maybe UNERTL / USO stoped making them because the USMC recieved all the scopes they ordered... and no one else ordered them? :wink: Honestly though... i would like to hear your opinion on why the MST-100 is outdated... thanks.

And as far as the .25 MOA before leaving quantico... and Eric Reid... the older M-118 173gr FMJBT ammo that was used for rifle testing when he was doing work with the MC would limit the older A1's to about .75 - 1 MOA. No wonder he could never get .25 MOA... the LR ammo wasnt adopted yet. When i said the rifle didnt leave quantico untill it obtained .25 MOA 5 shot groups i was speaking of the current issue M-40A3 with the M-118LR ammunition.

Heres where i get my info...

1 Staff Sgt. James Knight, a sniper section repairman at Weapons Training Battalion, Quantico

2 Staff Sgt. Jesse L. Bier, the project and field officer with 1st Marine Division

3 Lance Cpl. Gunther Johnston, an armorer with 1st Recon Bn

4 Sgt. Steven D. Lovell, team leader with 1st Recon Battalion's Bravo Company

5 Sgt. Andrew C. Giermann, a Reconnaissance and Surveillance instructor with 1st MEF

6 Staff Sgt. Van Seelay, Chief Reconnaissance and Surveillance instructor with 1st MEF

7 Myself...
 

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Hey guys,
Well it's getting hot in here. I thought I might interject a little with my 2cents {don't worry I promise the information is factual and checked}

I guess I don't know where to begin, it seems this debate is not as equal weighted as it could be. I think you guys might be trying to debate a retorical question.
Which is better this or that??
Is AI or Sako better. Dose the M40-A3 outshoot brand X. Dose this ammo give you better results?? ect. ect. ect.

The truth is everyone has somthing to offer this, this is true in all things.The truth is no one has made the perfect rifle yet. We just can't seem to beat gravity and mother nature. Thats were skill enters. This is what I love about this web site. I've been coming here since I think 1998
MEL. curiously when did you start this web site?

Some rifles are better suited for different situations. I love TBA rifles and own a few. I also own 2 AI's, 1 Sako TRG and umpteen other sniper/target rifles in various calibers.Some I've built from componets and parts some right off the shelf. I have at least 20 or more remington 700's in one form or another.Yes I'm a collector

Reputation in this industry is everything. Mike Lau from TBA has a reputation that many budding gunsmiths would never acheive. But Mike has established himself as not only a quality producer of a great product and backs it, but as an accomplied author as well.His book "The Military and Police Sniper is very well written. He talks the talk and walks the walk.
This is why he has exclusive contracts with so many police agencys around the world. But hey, so dose Tactical Operations, another producer of a great rifle with a well deserved reputation.

We can agree to disagree guys. I'm not the biggest fan of a 338 lapua mag. I do own one {my sako} but I love my 408 chey tac. I find the 408chey tac to be a better cartridge than the 338 lap mag. I get far better balistics from my 408 and better reach. But my gunsmith loves all his 300 Win. Mags

The M-40 series of rifles have been great and served the U.S.M.C very well. Then again so has the US Army's M24. They have built their training schools around them. Are they the best sniper rilfes out there??? I'm not saying yes,but dose the soilder on the buisness end of an M24 really care when he gets hit and dosen't know where the bullet came from??

Now about the M40's being cheap.I often think somtimes the military pays more than you or I do for firearms

When a military wants somthing built they give the exact spec's of what they want to prospective companys. These companys in turn bid on the contract. The military awards the bid to the LOWEST bidder. If it's not done right the first time it's done over again at the companies expense. yes they do get a price break but it's not 50%.
They bid as low as they can but factor in materials cost,labour, inflation and trying to make a business grow. The golry of your product being used by the military is more of a great honnor rather than a goal. Truth be told there is not a ton of money in government contracts, you just get undercut to death.

Now just because the rifle is built from the ground up as a sniper weapon, so what?? really, I know it's a great selling feature{hey I own a few}
but so what. AI makes a great rilfe don't get me wrong I love my 338.
but just because it can shoot 1/4 groups, don't mean I can shoot 1/4 groups.

I guess what I'm aluring to is that there is no clear cut best. Some rifles are better suited for other jobs and most will work in all situations. It all comes down to the shooter.

I was on a gig last summer on a curse ship. The security officer on the ship was an ex-royal marine sniper/retired from liverpool. {For those of you that don't know I'm an ex-Canadian sniper that trained in CFB Gagetown in N.B and then went onto JTF2 I left after a few years.}
A great guy and a wonderful person. Well we were playing pool everynight in the officers bar and having a great time {by the way don't play pool with british snipers for drinks on a cruse ship that rocks back and forth. your bar bill at the end of the week will be higher than the eiffle tower.No I'm dead serious, the brits invented pool.}
We would talk every night about sniping and our experiences one night the converstion turned to rifles. We talked about the ones we were issued,what we owned and the finer points of each others firearms. He made a comment about how if his rifle shot .5MOA that was great. He always concentrated more on the field craft of sniping than anything else. It was that skill that kept him alive to make more shots.

It made me think of every young and budding sniper I've met. The young guys want to talk guns and the latest toys, the old ones want to talk field craft and JD {judge distance}.
The rifle dose not make you a better shooter. Practice will!
Yes, you need a good quality precision insturment. But once you get to a certain point say .50-.25 MOA all things being equal where can you go. really??
I know police departments that have almost stock rifles to hot custom jobs in their battery while some department have a rifle from their confiscated inventory for marksmen work. Works for them.

Hey just my 2cents and somthing to think about
Can't we all just get along ':oops:'
Cheers,
Kenshin
 

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Hum, wow, things kind of took off here.

I think Kenshin is hit it on the head. We are trying to split hairs, where in fact it all started by BC offering a reply that was a bit "sharp", though I doubt intended to be as such.

The original buyer wants a replica, no problem. Mike Lau builds a great replica, though it'll be 9-12 months in the making. GA, Tac-Ops, Iron brigade, all make fantastic rifles. The m40a3 is great, the M24 is great, the TRG-22 & 42 is great, the AI is great, etc etc. It really does come down to field craft.... but I guess the topic is about the rifles....

to answer the question, the page has been up since late 1995.... this will be our 10th year.

MEL
 

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Kenshin,
Thanks for your post. You make some very interesting points I would like to address, however I feel I need to correct BC first.

BC

If the Marine Corps went with a SAKO or AI rifle they would have to retrain all there armorers... and all there snipers... not going to happen.
Sure it can. It happens all the time in all of the services for various equipment. Its called phasing in and out. They add the new rifles to the pipeline, and send all new and current armorers to a platform specific school. What makes you think they wouldn't do it for rifles when they do it for any other piece of equipment?

And when the vast majority of sniper shots are well under 300 yards... why would you need a .338 Lapua anyway?
When did I mention the .338?? Never. The Arctic Warfare-not the AP-comes in three different calibers. Did you know that? Besides, look at all the countries that use the AW as their official SWS, second only to the SVD

.308 does very well out to 800 yards and there are numerous confirmed kills at just over 1,000 yards with the M-40A3.
First, no one questioned the effectiveness of the .308. Your argument is a fallacy. We were on the subject of different 'smiths. That being said, the .308 does well out to 800 yards. It can easily kill at 1000. I would not want to get hit with one at 1000. But after 800 yards, the wind plays havoc with the bullet. It severely loses its efficiency. It is by far not the best caliber to go out past 800 yards. I shoot this caliber to 1000k all the time and it is not my favorite to that distance. Ask Mel or any of the known snipers here.

The MST-100 is outdated? Maybe UNERTL / USO stoped making them because the USMC recieved all the scopes they ordered... and no one else ordered them? Honestly though... i would like to hear your opinion on why the MST-100 is outdated... thanks.
This is easy. Let's give John Williams III at USO a call and ask him. The USMC received all of their scopes?? So from now on, a scope will never break and they will never want to replace their spare inventory? John says he has no plans to make them in the future that means the USMC will never order them again. Why?

Answer this question. If the MST-100 is so good and ready to rock and roll still, why is the USMC looking for a new scope?

And as far as the .25 MOA before leaving quantico... and Eric Reid... the older M-118 173gr FMJBT ammo that was used for rifle testing when he was doing work with the MC would limit the older A1's to about .75 - 1 MOA. No wonder he could never get .25 MOA... the LR ammo wasnt adopted yet. When i said the rifle didnt leave quantico untill it obtained .25 MOA 5 shot groups i was speaking of the current issue M-40A3 with the M-118LR ammunition.
Sooo are we talking about A1's or A3's? Because if we are talking about A3's then here is your answer. From the description of the GASP M40A3

This is built to spec with the exact same parts that were on the prototype M40A3 rifles tested and abused by the USMC. These are as close as you can get without having to raise your right hand and become a Marine!
Of the people you listed, is SSGT Knight a 2112?, or is anyone a 2112?

Of the others who is a 8541? And don't give me that "it's classified" BS because you already gave me their names and a quick call to Brian Sain can confirm any claims.

7 Myself...
And you?!? Who are you? Are you a 8541, no, how do I know?

So basically you think it would be cool to be a USMC Scout Sniper.... but lack the motivation and willingness to earn your place as one. With everything i have done and with how much experiance i have.... they still wont let me into Scout Sniper School.... what makes you think they will let you? I have applied twice.
Why haven't they let you in SSS? And what makes you an expert? I have real world experience with these weapons, have you? Stating your opinion is fine, but don't try to come off as an expert.

Mike Lau is a great gunsmith. There has never been that question. We are talking about (originally) phenomenal instruments where one has a slight advantage. Mike does have a reputation for some problems. I am stating this as second hand knowledge from people I trust unconditionally. That being said. We have strayed off the topic and I'm not going to banter with you (BC) any more.
 
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