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Mike said:
Has anyone shot this gun? Looks extremely impressive. Opinions??
well i rented a Mk23 and shot it today, first time i shot the gun
it was very impressive and i liked it a lot... shot very well even with all the junk down the barrel from the gun rarely being cleaned by the range staff
very big, realized how big until i saw it
im going to be getting this when i turn old enough, wanted to get before i shot it, after today i want it even more heh
 

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Nek and Dr. 308, and y'all in general: That's why the glock is so darned great, it lasts and lasts and lasts. Who was it who did a 10000 round test where the gun actually got more accurate (overall) between 0 and 6000 rounds? Shooting times? it was like a decade ago when they were just becoming the rage with autoloading pistol shooters.

On the other hand, the H&Ks are supposed to have similar reliability, durability, better accuracy and at least as much factory and vendor support (in case your H&K doesn't survive your loaded 'run-over' test as well as my Glock, haha).
 

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DR308,

Sorry, I've been away for a while, unable to access a computer.

I understand completely, and do not take what you said wrongly. What I meant by 8 rounds being all you need is that assuming you are walking down the street in a bad part of tow, and someone tries to rob you. If you are forced to fire at him for whatever reason, then you should be straight with 8 rounds. In that situation, you would definitely have gotten yourself messed up, as you are really one sucky marksman, even under pressure. And I know that in a condition RED situation, all of those hours of bullseye ttraining don't mean s**t. But I would have to say that in the majority of self defense shootings, it was against only on or sometimes two adversaries, and in a situation like that I still think that even with your adrenaline pumping and eight shots in the mag, you should either hit him or the excessive noise of all of your shots should scare him s**tless, and even if he has a gun, his accuracy will be as innefective, as now he has all the stress of having a .45 magazine unloaded in his direction on him. But in your situation of four armed robbers at 1AM, i would have to disagree. Even if you were strapped with a HK MP5K and a Beta-C 100 round mag, the odds are just too high against you. Whether 8 .45 rounds or 18 9mm shots, if you begin firing on one of the perps, I guarantee the others are just not going to stand there and watch you shoot them. Even if you, in Condition Red, manage to take down the first, and maybe even the second one, you still have two other armed adversaries to contend with. If I stumbled on to a Qiuky Mart robbery, with four armed men inside, I would not even draw my gun, until I was absolutely sure I could take them all off guard, because as I stated before 4 on 1 is just too high against your survival. Maybe James Bond is good enough to kill all 4 bad guys with jsut his one gun, but I am honestly going to tell you that I could not. Sorry if I rambled there.

But I understand your point completely, and did not mean to sound as though I think I am some Olympic class tactical shooter. I still believe, however, that for most self defense encounters, 8+1 rounds of .45 are going to be enough. And if they are for any reason not enough, I think for your safety you should not start shooting. Now, if you walk into the building and the robbers, in their haste, begin firing on you, thinking you are a cop or whatever, then your are in this situation not of your own volition, and vastly outnumbered, and fighting for your very survival. As you did not initiate the gunfight, you are forced to partake in it. In that case, you would certainly be severely inadequate with even 9 rounds of .45. I'd be the first to admit it. And then i would wish for nothing more than a hi-cap 9mm. So if its your choice to start shooting, then you should be well enough armed with 8 .45 bullets, but if you are forced to start shooting for your safety, you are going to have to make do with whatever you are carrying, and you would undoubtedly be better off with one hell of a lot of bullets, be they 9mm or even .22LR.

Now I am not trying to argue for exclusively carrying 8 rounds of .45, as if I had a CCW permit, I would skip right over my .45's and grab my 16 9mm rounds in my Beretta. But I do agree with you, and no self defense encounter can be predicted beforehand.

Man, I feel like I have been rambling for hours :eek: ! But I did not in any way take your post the wrong way, my friend. I greatly respect your opinion.

Jake
 

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:shock: I have had both H&K's and Glocks. Both make a fine reliable pistol. But every time that something happened to one of my H&K's, I got just about NO help at all from H&K. It seemed to me that if I was a gov. agency with an armory full of their MP5's, and Benelli's, THEN I would get the service I needed from them. Glock was never like that with me. AND GLOCK WAS A HELL OF ALOT CHEAPER!! So, I for one will stay with the combat tupperware.

Jake S: Iunderstand what you are trying to say. But my whole point to you was: "Plan for the worst case senario, if anything else happens, you will be prepared for it."
Plan for 4 or 5, if it's only 1 or 2, shame on them!
 

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Oh definitely, i certainly agree. I was originally assuming that it was a one-on-one where you were the guy with the gun. Not my thinking any longer! I too have begun to change my outlook, and now think that bigger is not necessarily better. My home defense gun had been for quite some time 8 .45 caliber Hydra-Shock rounds. Now it is 16 9mm Hydra-Shock rounds in my beloved Beretta (still my favorite of all the 9mm handguns out there). I did this because there has recently been a spate of home invasions in and around my area. The perps were a group of 6 Hispanic gang members, all of which was armed with either a gun or a knife. After reading your post I reassessed my thinking on home defense and decided to prepare for the worst. Even if only half of the group had guns, that only left two shots each with two misses! But 16 9mms gave me plenty. And that would definitely be a situation were you would have no choice but to shoot at them (aside from robbing the home owners, they raped the girls and shot the men :( ) Although, my room is on the upper floor, and if I ever heard them down stairs, I would go right past my .45 and my Beretta, to my gun safe where I keep my semi-auto AK-47 and Mini-14. Better safe than sorry! But you definitely wouldn't want bring one of those rifle with you to the Quiky Mart, so I shall be from now on relying on my hi-cap Beretta. THanks for the advice to be prepared for anything: it was advice well taken :D !

Jake
 

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ea agreed go for the biggest and most lethal gun you can get however a Mini 14 or AK-47 might be a problem with over penetration... dont want to sucessfully defend yourself and then go to jail for killing your neighbor who was sitting in thier house minding thier own business
 

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You can Delete your posts, you know. Look to the right of quote, you'll see, edit. Then look right again, and you'll se an X. Click it, hit ok, and you're good.

The problem with this is the fact that some malicious users can basically write the entire side of a conversation, have an entire 10 page thread, and then delete all his posts, making the entire thread a bit strange to look at.
 

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I keep hollow points in the AK and light ballistic tips in the Mini, but I still might overpenetrate. However, i would be going mainly for intimidation. Let the media's glorification of the AK as a mankiller strike fear into the very depths of their souls :twisted: !

Jake
 

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yea
i dont see why someone would be more scared of an AK than a 1911 though
yes the AK is bigger yes the AK has more stopping power but i think that anything is going to scare the crap out of them but dont rely on them backing off just casue they see your big gun they might just decide to try to do something stupid im not sure how laws are there but if it was legal to i wouldnt give them a chance to surrender or run id sjust shoot on site cause any second i wait is a second they have the potential to kill me
as for the AK-47 or Mini 14 good weapons that can hit a target quicker, more accurately and harder than just about any pistol can heh
 

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Well they were packing handguns so if I drew mine they would see us as evenly matched; not so if I buck my AK :twisted: ! As for laws down here in Redneckville, Georgia, if they are on my land (let alone in my house) and I do not want them to be I have full right to shoot until my mag is empty! So I would definitely take your suggestion and shoot on sight. Hell, I would be peaking out from around the corner just watching them ransack my house, so they wouldn't even expect it when i open fire on 'em!

Jake
 

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well were not allowed ot shoot tresspassers here actually woudlnt be allowed to kick thier ... here
home invasion is a differnt story though... your allowed to defend yourself with lethal force heh
 

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Even out here, in California, if you can articulate that you were in fear for your life (or that of your loved ones), you can can use lethal force. Even just on your property. We are not a property state, so threat of property damage is not a valid reason. Now, what it takes to prove that you were in fear for your life... - that's a separate issue. As a civilian, using a firearm is my very very very very last resort. That being the case, I've done my best to be VERY good at it, so that I can spend about 90% of my attention on making the decision. (So Ok, Fine, my instructors tell me that my penchant for considering a Shoot/No Shoot donga trail a target-rich environment is not a good idea, but that's a separate issue :oops: )

If I could own any weapon for self-defense, I'd want to go with an MP5SD (10mm). Then again, I'd love to own ANY MP5, but in this state... yeah, right. :?
 

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The H&K P2000 is a nice carry gun, comes in .40sw & 9mm
P2000 US has industry standard mounting rails, allowing the widest variety of lights, laser aimers, and accessories to be added by sliding them onto the open rail system.


Specifications
Caliber Capacity Length Width Height Sight Radius Barrel Length Weight
9mm 10 7.00 1.34 5.04 5.59 3.62 1.37lb
.40 S&W 10 7.00 1.34 5.04 5.59 3.62 1.37lb

and now they have one that is even smaller P2000SK
[/img]
 

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Er...ok, a bit late, maybe. But I'd just like to point out a thing or two on the eternal discussion of what is the better gun.

I own a Mk23 with a B&T Impulse IIA suppressor. It's my fun-gun. Haven't had the time to put more than about 1000 rounds through it. And of course, no hick-ups so far. Considering that one of the Mks HK tested went through more than 30 000 rounds without a hick-up, I think it's fair say they've managed to make a good gun. Despite it's size and weight.

Then again, it was never intended to be a back-up weapon, either. I'm issued with the first generation Glock 17 - and honestly, it's the best sidearm I can imagine. Granted, I'd want a fourth generation..but hey, it's not like our armed forces buy new weapons when they're available. We've still got a 38 year old battlerifle, after all :roll: But the point is, SOCOM wanted an offensive handgun. And in my opinion they got the best possible offensive handgun. But no chance I'll want to carry it around 24/7 strapped on my thigh.

In many respect the Tac is a much better deal. It's quite a bit cheaper, smaller and lighter. And it still has the o-ring, the same trigger..and it's built to endure nearly as much punishment as the Mk23. It even has adjustable sight - but it ain't half as cool :mrgreen:
 

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I was actually a bit surprised, too. But once you mount the 300g suppressor, and I imagine the extra 140g for a LAM - which I don't really have to worry about seeing as the -450 cost about the same as I payed for gun and suppressor. :roll: If you go with the mag extensions, too...well, then it does get a bit too heavy for a back-up weapon. In my opinion.

But if my life ever was to depend on a sidearm, which I hope it never will, there's no gun I'd trust more than my Mk23.
 
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