[Hectorvictorious]

I'm not military or LE, and if I ever am, it will be after I have a degree. But just out of curiosity, how do snipers beat IR? My friend has an ATN night vision scope with IR intensifier tubes, and if you're in range, you can't hide from it. The military infrared should be even better.

 

[FLEA]

??

Are you asking about Themals?

Infared and night vision will only show you if you are out in the open. If you are hidden you are hidden.

 

[Nekekami]

Well, using the terrain(indeed the whole environment) is an effective way of defeating IR imaging/sensors. There's also camouflage being developed that decreases your infrared signature. And, as you stated, you have to be within range for the IR imaging equipment to work. In a rainy/snowy/foggy environment, the range is drastically decreased.

One method I've used is to wear a thin wetsuit underneath my uniform and ghillie(called trolldräkt in Swedish, which translates to troll suit =) ), then crawl through mud, water etc. The wetsuit keeps me warm for a while, while the wet uniform has the temperature of the surrounding water, mud and possibly air. But remember to use the wetsuit, otherwise you'll freeze like a nude Kalahari pygmee in Siberia during the winter... Just a friendly warning...

Nekekami

 

[Guest]

Counter-Sniper

Of course the OTHER way to beat someone with infrared is to launch a counter-offensive and snipe them first!

 

[Nekekami]

Re: Counter-Sniper

Of course the OTHER way to beat someone with infrared is to launch a counter-offensive and snipe them first!

And you just gave away your presence. Even if your exact location isn't known, your presence is known, and if the person(s) carrying IR imaging gear aren't your primary objective, you almost certainly ruined your primary mission.

Nekekami

 

[Guest]

Well, well, well. It would appear that you are correct in that respect. I was assuming you were trying to avoid being located by the enemy who is invariably searching for YOU with the IR. That presupposes that they are already aware that you are operating within their territory. Otherwise, you are correct. DO NOT give away your advantage of secrecy.

 

[Jeffvn]

Tis true that's why you pull back and call in Arty or an air strike.

 

[Guest]

That would certainly negate any possibility of your detection and subsequent capture, while at the same time leaving no target identifiers like spent shells! Although it would probably be a tad more violent than most would want for an operation that originally required the stealth and precision afforded by the sniper.

 

[Jeffvn]

I guess it depends upon the reason for your being there. In the STA units we were used as snipers, forward observers to call in arty, air strikes on targets of opportunity, and naval guns as well as in a purely recon mode.

 

[Guest]

Against targets of oppurtunity I can see no better way to ressurect Hell itself!

 

[Nekekami]

Same thing with us. My spotter is a former recon specialist, and we've both had training in spotting for artillery, airforce etc.

Would be even more fun if we somehow get to play with the gear that S1, SSG and Fallskärmsjägarna has...

 

[Sim]

A few peole have mention being safe from thermal image detection when out of range. But what is the effective range of military IR or thermal imaging equipment?

 

[subThermal]

That depends on who has it, and what it is. Vehical mounted or "man portable". A lot of factors go into imaging equipment, starlight, fog, clouds, humidity, etc. The cheaper the unit is, typically, the more suseptable it is to be faulty, or have less range.

Then again, there are some extremely nice units out there as well. Which, I can't afford, nor do I have a need to have it.

But like Nek said, a wetsuit is a good, well though out idea, and I have used it once or twice.

 

[Guest]

I'm glad the VC and NVA didn't have all the high-tech equipment that's readily available today. Things were fun enough without it! We did have lots of fun with leeches, snakes, mosquitoes and other cute critters. I think THEY had IR equipment because they ALWAYS found us. The wetsuit would have been a bitch in the heat, but might have come in handy during the monsoon!

K2

 

[Nekekami]

K2:

Didn't they brief you on that? The insects and leeches are usually attracted by scent, but many vipers do have a sense for "seeing" in the IR spectrum, in addition to their normal seeing. It's been known for around 50 years now. You've got a quite famous one in the US, called Sidewinder...(Guess where the AIM-9 got its nickname from)

 

[Guest]

It is pit vipers that can detect IR with their "Jacobs Organ". It is located between the eye and the nostril and looks like small hole. We have more than our share of them where I live in the form of Diamondback and Pygmy rattlesnakes. I don't remember what attracted leeches except movement. I've tried real hard to forget about those suckers (pun not intended). The mosquitoes are attracted by the carbon dioxide we give off when we exhale. Repellent worked O.K., but then the bad guys could smell you too if they got close(which they did all too often). Yeah, I was briefed.

K2

 

[Nekekami]

K2

There are other kinds of vipers that have them too. There's a green viper common in Indonesia and on Borneo that has two such sensory outgrowths. They take the form of small knobs on either side of the head, rather than pits.

Also, mosquitos don't just track the carbon dioxide, they also track the minute particles of blood sugar etc that comes out when you exhale.

Yes, I'm a geek too 8)

 

[david]

hi again nek, i seem to have a habit of arguing with you!

It isn't blood sugar in your breath (sugar has negligible volatility), it's traces of keytones that are the result of your body burning off fat (i'm a diabetic) that the mosquitos are attracted to, and i'm sure general body odour does also. Your body breathes through your skin slightly also.

haven't bothered to read all the posts but this is what i do know, there are very different types of night vision optics:

1. Passive IR
These sense heat by the IR radiation that every body with heat has. The wavelength of the IR radioation depends on the heat, so you differentiate between say a human and a cold rock. The quality of the image is poor because the radiation given off by the sources is weak and of long wavelength, and anything of the same temperature is just a blob.

2. Active IR - the only type that emits anything toward your target.
These illuminate an area with IR light (remember that IR is just invisible light) and look at the reflection with IR sensitive optics, in exactly the same way you'd illuminate something with a torch and look at the reflection. These do not detect heat because the wavelengths used are very much lower (but this gives better resolution). So if your enemy is only using Active IR, then it doesn't matter what your heat signiture is so long as your camoflauged. Also, it's very easy to detect someone else using active IR if you switch your illuminator off and just look in their general direction, you'll see what will look like a torch light.

3. Image intensifying
This involves amplifying any available light, but there's noise in the image that increases with the amplification.

 

[Nekekami]

David:

In that case, it's different depending upon what kind of mosquito, because the ones we studied in bio tracked blood sugar. We did enough experiments with that to verify it(And damn did it take a long time and many liters of blood to separate enough blood sugar to conduct those experiments. Good thing that the slaughterhouse nearby had lots they could give away).

As for passive IR, the military portable ones are a couple of generations ahead of what's available for civilians. Range is still short, but resolution(both image and temperature) as well as colour processing of the resulting image is fairly decent, with the addition of better processors and DSP's that can survive harsh conditions.

 

[goon]

take two of those emergency very thin sleeping bags used to preserve body heat, take them and cut them so they're not nothing that flat sheets instead of bags. tie em together on the ends and sew bdu cloth over them on both sides. it'll turn into an insulated mat that you can cover yourself with. it'll prolly add 5 to 7 lbs to gear but it should be able to conceal body heat for a short while. reason being is body heat will build up underneath it and start to seep out through the sides while you're hiding under it. you can even tie some ghillie mesh to it etc.. make it to your favor(why did I put face there? LOL). it should be enough to avoid the glancing tank or helicopter.