[madgunsmith]

Hello again folks:

This may prove to be a controversial subject and my hope is to offer some advice regarding the vexing question of self defence. You may live in one of the more pointy-headed (ie left-wing) areas of the country and you need to know how to deal with the aftermath of a self defence shooting.

The first thing you should realize is that your every action will be scrutinized. At all times you should understand that your words can be used against you. Never say anything macho or foolish. At all times you must present yourself as a quiet, thoughtful person. You do not want to mouth off to your buddies at the rifle range. If you are ever charged, such ill advised remarks may come back to haunt you.

If you live in a left-wing part of the country, you should choose your self defence firearm most carefully. If you live in New York, Mass., New Jersey, California, etc. I would recommend that your housegun be the type of arm that least alarms panty-waisted Democrats. If you live in one of these states, use something like a Remington 870 or a Winchester 94 as your housegun. Both of these firearms are admirably suited for stopping felons at close range.

If you have to shoot someone, you should only do so if life is in danger. If you ever have to face a jury, you had better be sure that you can tell them, "my life was in danger". And if you tell them that, you had better make sure that they agree with you. Otherwise you are going to go to jail.

In the aftermath of a self defence shooting, you should call 911. But when you do so, the 911 operator will try to get you to incriminate yourself. The operator will try to get you to say something stupid. And if you say something stupid, your comments will be recorded and used against you at trial. So when you call the 911 operator, here's what you say: " Help. I've shot an intruder. Quick. Send an ambulance. Hurry!!" And you can bet that the operator will ask you why you shot the intruder. Your answer: "He was trying to kill me. Quick send an ambulance. He's hurt and I don't want him to die" And every time the operator asks you something stupid, you should say, "Send an ambulance.
Hurry!! Hurry!! Send an ambulance".

When that 911 tape is played in court the jury will realize that you are a sane, normal person. You are concerned about the criminal's well being even though he's a criminal who tried to hurt you.

Another thing: Do not under any circumstances try to move the criminal's body. I hear guys say all the time that it is a good idea to shoot the intruder and then move the body outside. THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA. DON'T DO IT. If you move the body, a modern forensics team will be able to prove it. (Blood spatter evidence, luminol etc.) And if you move the body, you will find yourself caught in a lie. And if you are caught in a lie in front of the jury, then you are going to go to jail.

After you call 911, it might be a good idea to leave your firearm across the room. And you should sit down in a chair so that when the cops arrive, they can see your hands. You don't want the cops to shoot you by mistake.

When the police arrive, you should say as little to them as possible. Tell them your name, dob, etc and tell them that you will give them a statement only in the presence of your counsel. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE. THE POLICE ARE NOT THERE TO HELP YOU.

Your house will be photographed as a potential crime scene and it will be a good thing if your house is neat and tidy. After all nice, middle class people have nice, tidy houses. And please remember that you might also want to have wholesome patriotic or religious pictures on your walls.

I once saw a case where a guy shot a burglar. And the homeowner in question had a picture of his mother on the wall. And when the jury saw Mr. Dead Felon lying in a pool of blood, they also saw the picture of the homeowner's mother on the wall. ( So remember crime scene pictures can be your friend.)

It will also be a good thing to talk to a lawyer who practises criminal law in your jurisdiction. Find out what you will need to do in order to get bail in the event you are ever arrested for defending your home and the lives of your family. And carry your lawyer's business card everywhere. Tell the cops, "Here's my lawyer's card. I want to call him/her" AND SAY NOTHING WITHOUT TALKING TO YOUR LAWYER. You might want to program your lawyer's home number into the memory of your cell phone.

And you might want to go and watch a jury trial or two. I will think of other things and I will add to this post when new ideas cross my mind.


Mad.

 

[AK]

And you may not want to aim for his face, although the instinct at close range is "Suck this, f*cktard." You blow his head off with a shotgun, the jury is shown these images, they don't handle a tidy little entry hole from a 9x19mm very well, a head torn off by buckshot at close range ensures you going to jail.

About cops not being your friend? They're never your friend. They're good people, but they're trained to get you to f*ck yourself. In the ass. With a spiked metal rod.

And then you're going to jail.

 

[mele]

Some valuable information there.

But lets not totally crack down on the cops, they have a very difficult job and for the most part thankless. They do need to approach situations as if there may have been a crime committed, or else there would be a lot of people "getting away with murder" (pun intended). Its an unfortunate thing, especially for a justified self defense like we are talking about....

MEL

 

[Scatch Maroo]

But lets not totally crack down on the cops, they have a very difficult job and for the most part thankless. They do need to approach situations as if there may have been a crime committed, or else there would be a lot of people "getting away with murder" (pun intended). Its an unfortunate thing, especially for a justified self defense like we are talking about....

I agree that police officers may not be your friends, but neither are your parents, and for either to protect their children from others and themselves, they can't act like your friends.

Although no one likes the idea of a government that has an equatable authority to our parents, it is unfortunately necessary given that adults, much like children, will get away with murder (this pun is flowing through the thread...) whenever they can.

Many of you are parents, or at least, old enough to recognize the duties of a parent: how much trust do you place in your children when they tell you they don't know how the vase broke, the stain arrived on the carpet, or that dent was put into the car? Similarly, you can't expect police to be any different. The sad part is, we eventually grow to love and respect our parents more and more as we recognize the sacrifices they made by disciplining us, while we simply grow to despise and hate our law enforcement officers who do the same.

So please, remember that although the police may be trying to incriminate you for the crime, it's only because they love everyone within the community and want to ensure that they are doing all that is possible to protect those people. The next time you see an officer outside his patrol car, approach him as quickly and fervently as possible, and hug him as hard as you can to show him you love him, too!

Scatch Maroo

P.S. I apologize for the two-paragraph body, Muzzleblast...

P.S.S. I apologize to everyone else who may find me long-winded, but it's a trait of the training to be absolutely thorough, I suppose.

 

[subThermal]

I think the topic is a little misleading. You "don't get away with it." There is nothing to get away from if you do it in self defense in regards to someones saftely.

As far as weapon choice, just buy a stock 1911 with home defense ammo. It will ruin a would be -attackers day pretty quick and in a hurry.

I must however; agree, with the part about "saying you were in fear for your life." This is the golden rule for self defense for handguns. Of course, you can also be in fear of someone elses' life, i.e. walking into someone being beaten, mugged, raped, etc.

There are so many factors in a case like that, some honest and good people are in jail because thier lawyers did not know how to properly defend thier clients.

My advice would be to do a little reasearch and find a lawyer who has won cases regarding self defense and use of deadly force in your area.

And the police aren't the enemy. They are doing thier job.

 

[madgunsmith]

I agree with SubThermal's criticism of the thread's title.

But lots of innocent people get convicted. They're innocent and they don't "get away". My use of that title was merely to get your attention. And of course, I was trying to stir up a little controversy.

But remember, no matter who defends you, your lawyer will have to deal with the things that you say. So be really, really careful what you say to the police and to the 911 operator.

Please also keep in mind that the lessons explained herein, are those that I learned through hard earned experience. I had to deal with a case where the 911 operator got the client to incriminate himself. And I know exactly how prosecutors are going to come after you. The sad fact is that most police officers and prosecutors are simple bureaucrats. If they think they can prosecute you, they will.

And a 1911 would be a good self defence choice in a handgun-friendly state. If you are trapped in occupied territory, (N.Y.. Mass., N.J.. Md. Ill., etc.) it might be best not to use a handgun for self defence. You have to consider your local circumstances and the political realities of your jurisdiciton.

I suggest that you actually attend a jury trial. In fact you should go down to your local courthouse and look for a good assault, robbery or murder trial. That way you can learn by watching.

I must also respectfully disagree with Mel, who writes that police work is often "thankless". The police are usually very well paid and very well thanked. And I say that we deserve to get what we pay them for. Anyway, I'm not against the police per se. I'm in favor of the home defender.

Mad

 

[muzzleblast]

I think Mad's point was really just that as the Miranda says, things you say CAN and WILL be used against you. So don't tell the cops you "smoked that fool"...its a joke, but it is true that we develop strange mouths when we are all shaken up.

Not trying to speak for ya Mad, just my opinion. They'll have you under scrutiny and you will be a murder suspect, so best not fuel that fire.

 

[Jeff_850]

its all bullshit unfortuneately the stupid people (left wingers) dont think that people have the right to defend themselves

1.) weather you gun them down with an m2 machine gun mounted in the living room or pa's ole 12 ga pump shoudlnt have anything to do with it and any institution that would take that into consideration is wrong- if the weapon is legal... if not then charge them with having an illegal weapon not murder unless they actually committed the crime
2.) religous crap weatehr it be nazi crap or a bible shoudlnt matter... there on trial for murder not what religion they are... dont get me wrong i dont like nazis, the kkk or any racist groups of losers but they are protected to belive in thier twisted views under the 1st amendment though i wish they got educated and realized how stupid they were or just stop breathing
3.) laws are lacking in every state that does not allow you to shoot a home invader just for being there and as such being a threat to you

conclusion- court systems are full of **** and its a shame that we have to do what mad says to not be convicted of defending ourselves...

sorry scatch i didnt make my post as organized as yours

 

[Drew]

Well I know who I am going to hire to defend me if I get charged for murder :wink:

 

[Kaz]

I agree with pretty much everything on here: cops are doing thier jobs and the parent analogy seems good, as well as all the advice as to how to handle yourself and be prepared to defend yourself legally. I did hear a good idea that should give an advantage to the shotgun; with the abundance of less lethal ammo, load your gun so that will be the first shot you fire, that way you've tried to defend yourself without lethal force. Maybe it might work and you don't have to resort to killing, something I think we should do only if it's genuinely neccessary. Don't forget to be sure of who you're throwing lead at; is it a cocaine induced robbery or your confused grandfather who's visiting and on his way to he can? Also, as a fairly new father, have your stuff secured. If you have anything laying around unsupervised, it's dangerous and will also look (excuse me, _be_) extremely bad. I'm all for defence and am hoping to get that taken care of soon, but invest in a trigger lock at least; _something_ to keep it safe and show/be responsible.

 

[Scatch Maroo]

with the abundance of less lethal ammo, load your gun so that will be the first shot you fire, that way you've tried to defend yourself without lethal force. Maybe it might work and you don't have to resort to killing, something I think we should do only if it's genuinely neccessary.

Don't forget to be sure of who you're throwing lead at; is it a cocaine induced robbery or your confused grandfather who's visiting and on his way to he can?

Second paragraph first: if you're using a shotgun, get a Surefire or some other LEO-frequented high-power flashlight on it, as we know you should never shoot ANY thing that isn't identified as a threat (i.e. you can see the face and know it isn't a relative).

First paragraph: In CA, there is nothing stopping a criminal who has been shot in your home from sueing you. If you kill him, his family will still sue you, but be less likely to win. If he isn't dead, he most likely win in a suit for assault, even if he's caught with a bat or some sort of thing. Check your state's laws, and keep this in mind.

Scatch Maroo

 

[SpEcTeR]

The next time you see an officer outside his patrol car, approach him as quickly and fervently as possible, and hug him as hard as you can to show him you love him, too!

Scatch what are they giving you? Have you taken it recently?

If I hug an officer like that I'm likely to get arrested for harrasment or maybe even assault if I hug him hard enough. :shock:

Relax buddy, I don't think Mad meant to talk bad about pigs...*grin*...I meant police officers. In all seriousness, you get pretty friendly with them, and the'll still watch out for themselves and only for their own interests and saftety.

Why am I posting on this thread....interesting read but this is OUT there now. Moving on...

 

[Scatch Maroo]

The next time you see an officer outside his patrol car, approach him as quickly and fervently as possible, and hug him as hard as you can to show him you love him, too!

Scatch what are they giving you? Have you taken it recently?

If I hug an officer like that I'm likely to get arrested for harrasment or maybe even assault if I hug him hard enough. :shock:

That's the joke...

In all seriousness, you get pretty friendly with them, and the'll still watch out for themselves and only for their own interests and saftety.

You would do the same for anyone you fought in combat with: don't you ensure the safety of yourself and your colleagues above all else? That's the responsibility of anyone in a civil defense position because if they're dead, there's no one to save those they're sworn to serve.

Scatch Maroo

 

[SpEcTeR]

Yes I do understand. I never said I didn't or that I disagreed with watching out for your own collegues.

However I dissagree here: Combat is not the same. Officers are there to protect and serve. In combat you are there to accomplish missions that involve eliminating those that you come in contact with. If officers exhibited the same characteristics as soldiers do in combat, we would have rioting in the streets.

I think I see the analogy you were trying to make thought. Anyway, I was just joking around. This post is still interesting but I'm out.

 

[muzzleblast]

If I was a big city cop in certain areas, I'd be as jumpy as a cat on speed.

While what they DO in their service might not be the same as what a soldier will in his, I think Scatch is fair in his comparison of the mindset. People will want to and try to kill ya, shots fired, all that good stuff...get to work under crappy rules of engagement, and deal with all manner of scummy people.

 

[sniperdog-alpha1]

empty the clip into the person and keep pulling the trigger until the cops get there. act like you freaked out and where scared for your life. Now this is very important, you can not leave them alive. If all else fails shoot them with buckshot out of a smooth bore. No ballistic testing on shot!!
sniperdog

 

[FLEA]

!

Some follow up advice from me:

1. The 911 call is important like already said....make many references to send a ambulence....is it on the way.....how long till it gets here.....please tell them to hurry....ect....and they will probe you for questions....they dont always do this to get you to incriminate yourself... its more to see if you are a threat or danger to anyone else and to give the officers and ambulance drivers more information on the situation. Abulance drivers may make it there before police but without sufficent info will not go into a house on a shooting call (some states they wont at all) without police presence.

2. Yes, lawyer up but the best way is to do it is when the officer first officer comes to take your statement tell him that your were afraid for for life and ask him if you will get in trouble for this and should you contact your family lawyer. (not my lawyer....sounds like you have been in a bunch of trouble) the officer will always tell you it is your legal right to have a attorney present during any questioning so you tell him yes you would feel more comfortable that way and thank him.

You want to have the police on your side and telling them you wont say anything without and lawyer rubs all officers the wrong way. There is a more tactful way to do it.

If you have a good 911 call with many references to send a ambulance. And the first officer at the scene you dont rub the wrong way the DA wont even waste their time with the case.

Course you could always be sued by the guy or his family but now you have the police and a good 911 tape to help your case.

 

[madgunsmith]

I agree with Flea, but in my jurisdiction you would get charged anyway.
And it would not matter if you said, "my lawyer".

But in a saner political climate, I would agree with him.


Mad

 

[Hectorvictorious]

The next time you see an officer outside his patrol car, approach him as quickly and fervently as possible, and hug him as hard as you can to show him you love him, too!

Scatch what are they giving you? Have you taken it recently?

If I hug an officer like that I'm likely to get arrested for harrasment or maybe even assault if I hug him hard enough. :shock: quote]

One time I was hanging out with some friends the cops got called and stopped by to check us out (we were playing soccer in a parking lot at night). The patrol car pulled up and a young officer stepped out. My roomate recognized him and ran up to give him a hug. The officer put his hand on his weapon and took a step back, while his partner lunged out of the passenger side, also clutching his weapon.
My roomate, obviously not the smartest guy in the world, but not exactly suicidal either, stopped and asked if he could shake the officers hand.
Apparently they had wrestled in high school, my roomate was 3-time state champ, and the officer was one of only two people to ever beat him.

Yeah, trying to hug an officer on duty isn't a very good idea.

I have only had one bad experience with police (but that one was BAD). Every cop I know is a really good guy, and I know quite a few officers. But I agree with Mad. They are well paid and well thanked, and there are many that don't deserve the position they hold.

 

[muzzleblast]

I think everyone in uniform is held to ideals that are unreal for our population...Thats what they represent, a big handful of our population.

Take a chunk of people I know here...wouldn't wanna see half of em with a gun and a badge.

Sorry all, I mean people here as in people in my hometown...not people in the forum. Although I would pay to see Spade with a gun and a badge