[Ravenblack]

You could also try filming yourself.

This dull video shows me during a series of 10 shot/90 second match cards. The first half of the video is 3/4 view of me, the second half is head on. If you go to the second half you can see how solid & still the position becomes at the point of fire.

It still surprises me exactly how 'frozen' I become.

To ensure a fast shoot I had to aim the rifle, rather than my body. The opposite of what I'm trying to teach - BUT I had to take into account the tendency for the rifle to return to the neutral.

To do this I set up my neutral natural point of aim at the centre of the 10 spot card, which meant all of the 'pushed' aimed shots would try to return to that centre point. I then aimed a little too far on each individual target to try and compensate the tendency to return to neutral.

The result was shot as per the direction shown on the first post on this thread. The results though:
1 low right
2 low right - but not so much
3 low left - but not so much
4 low left
5 left
6 high left
7 high left - but not so much
8 high right - but not so much
9 high right
10 right

This does prove that the recoil is always trying to get back to the NPA's neutral position each time.

My best shoot in this discipline took 75 seconds and scored 99/100.

Not recommended for tuning your neutral position, but useful for learning fast & accurate fire - which helps on windy, changeable weather conditions on match shoots, where you have a limited window of opportunity to fire in the lulls (or whatever condition you zeroed to).

 

[wigwamitus]

Yeah I may have to film myself due to the darth of local coaches. I'll need to get an appropriate tripod.

Recent dry fire numbers:

NPA checks/rifle

5 .22LR (the one I gave up on)
1 .303B (the first attempt with the LE with a sling)
3 .303B (not as easy aiming at higher target)
1 .22LR (medium height target)
3 .303B (high target)
2 .22LR (low target)

I guess I should explain that my dry fire "range" has a target paper with six targets. Two are 4 inches off the floor and 8 inches apart (these are the "low" targets). The next two are 8 inches above those two (the "medium" targets). And then there are two higher ones (the "high" targets). This target placement was already forcing me to move whenever I shift targets, so the 10 target paper will extend this idea to the field.

I won't actually dry fire the LE, it is an antique and I don't want to risk damage and I don't have a solution except to use alredy fired brass. But with the bolt loose I can squeeze the trigger. Right now I'm focused on the NPA checks. I'll continue the side by side "competition" between the LE with sling and the .22LR without. It may be that shooting with the sling has inspired my brain to find a more comforble position for the .22LR without the sling. The numbers will tell me over time.

 

[Ravenblack]

You can get .303 snap caps (mock rounds with sprung centres). I used them on my 1917 SMLE III*#.

 

[wigwamitus]

Last batch from last night:

NPA // rifle
5 .22LR w/o sling (after this decided to put sling on .22LR)
2 .303B w/ sling
5 .22LR w/ sling (too loose needed adjustment)
2 .22LR w/ sling
1 .22LR w/ sling
2 .303B

And this mornings first run (all now arae .22LR with sling):

1 .22LR (low)
3 .22LR (low)
2 .22LR (med)
2 .22LR (hi)
1 .22LR (med)
2 .22LR (lo)

I think the sling idea works amazingly well. The sling adds support to the affected wrist in just the right spot and the discomfort in the wrist is gone.

If I am "too extended" then there is a bit of discomfort in the muscle on the side of my forearm facing away from me. But wiggling my waist forward a bit towards the target relieves this problem.

When I fail the NPA check I am usually (always?) off to the right, sometimes even after I adjust. So, I'm now trying to figure out why that is.

Averages:

2.08 NPA/Shots dry firing overall

1.75 NPA/shots dry firing .22LR after adjustments to sling completed

So I'll call this the new baseline.

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-05-08

Dry firing

I am now dry firing at 6 targets at 30 foot "living room". Two of the targets are 20 inches off the floor and 4 inches apart, these are the "high" targets, then two more are 12 inches off the floor and 4 inches apart, these are the "medium" targets and two more at 4 inches off the floor and 4 inches apart. I'm dry firing at them from upper left in a clockwise fashion. This forces re-aiming the body for each shot.

So I will present the results in a grid, the position of the numbers in the grid represents the position of the targets and the count of the NPA checks I had to take before I passed and could engage the trigger.

I have 6 snap caps for the .22LR so a dry firing "round" is 6 trigger pulls.

1st round
4 2
2 1
1 1
When the NPA count is high, there was discomfort. In this case, I learned that by moving my body forward and backward I can create or relieve tension in the muscele on the away from body side of the support arm.

2nd round
1 1
2 5
3 1
Another case of needing to move fore and aft. The left right movement I have got the idea of, it is the fore and aft movement I'm still learning about when and how to use. I also note that many of my missed NPA checks are "to the right", which I now think is caused by me putting pressure on the sling with my non-firing arm. Awareness might be half the battle. Changing elevations is tougher for me right now than changing from left to right.

3rd round
2 3
3 1
2 1
I actually made a small adjustment to the sling, tightened it up a bit. WIth the .303B sling, which is leather, "getting into" the sling takes no thought. But with this sling (Tactical Interventions) which I'll say is made of "plastic" (have no idea, but it isn't leather) the sling "hangs" on my arm a little and I need to move my arm about a bit to make sure I am solidly in the sling.

4th round
1 2
1 1
2 1
Maybe I'm finally getting the "range". The "pulling to the right" tendency is gone. Now most NPA check misses are elevation related.

5th round
2 2
1 1
2 1
Had wife telling me a story during this round. In this case it was unintended distraction. I want to practice with distractions, but not until I'm a little farther down the road!

==
Summary:
Well I finally got my quota of 30 dry fires today. If I do this for six months, maybe it will help. I'll still go out and shoot "wrong" some - to remeber what it sounds and feels like, but I see the benefits of this dry fire exercise and that motivates me to continue. I keep comparing it to "scales and chords" when I was playing piano. I'd played piano (and guitar) for a few years, but when I got in a band, I felt the need to get a lot better faster, so six months of scales and chords for the piano and never ending finger exercises (still done today) on the guitar helped me get to the next level. I'm sure it was boring to watch/listen too, but you have to train the motor elements of the system .

Today's average was 56/30 = 1.766

 

[Ravenblack]

Good to see you are focused. Once you get it, it becomes easier & faster to find each time.

It's a fundamental that is sadly overlooked. By ignoring it there are some good shooters who'll never be great shooters.

 

[wigwamitus]

Hecque, I'd never even HEARD of it until I watched a video a week ago. But this isn't the first time a layer of the onion has gotten pealed back for me and I'm sure it won't be the last .

 

[wigwamitus]

Since "copping out" and adding the sling, the wrist discomfort is gone. Only discomfort now comes (I think) when I am too extended fore and aft (elbow and mid-section) or left to right (elbows), then muscles complain a bit, but that is good, because I shouldn't be too extended in those ways.

==
Results from 2014-05-09

1 1
1 5 both fore/aft and left to right issues
1 2 fore/aft

4 2 (4=fore/aft stock placement, 2 = right)
1 1
2 1 (2=f/a up)

1 1
1 2 (2=right and up)
1 2 (2=f/a)

1 1
1 1
1 2 (high, f/a)

1 1
1 1
1 1 oh my - my first clean round!

I'm finally getting to the point where I can predict which ways I have to move while first sighting in, before closing eyes. If this can be sustained and improved, the ratio ( NPA-check / dry-fires ) should drop.

Average for today 43/30 = 1.433

 

[Ravenblack]

Excellent work! I was doing 10 spots at 25yds today - Team and individual (.3" target centre).
Has been tough to get stable for the last 8 months due to 2 broken legs. One leg still has an unstable fracture, which isn't helping!

Anyway, shot a 96, 97 and two 98's. The 96 was a real leg down, caused by hip role on the unstable fracture. The others were simply uncomfortable to the point I head a sweat going on.

Without the neutral (NPA) working for me, I'd have been a lot worse off.

 

[Ravenblack]

Some badly pulled shots. A messy 98 score.

 

[wigwamitus]

R, Wow, I thought I had problems with my wrist ... but your leg problems sound orders of magnitude tougher ... and now I see what your scores 100, 99, 98, etc. mean I need to make up some similar targets. BTW, what ammo do you shoot. I've been shooting Federal AM22, 40gr, 1200. I have about one "will not fire" round per 200 or so, which is ok with me. I'm thinking this ammo is somewhere near the middle, but I've been able to get it for between 8 and 11 cents a round and I want something I can get consistently. I have about 2200 rounds of this. But if there is something clearly better (more reliable) I'd be interested in hearing about it.

==

2014-05-10

dry firing (.22LR with sling and iron sites, 6 targets, 6 dry fires per "round")

4 1 (4=2xf/a, 2xl/r)
3 1 (3=1xf/a, 2xl/r)
1 1

Fixing a fore and aft problem, induces and left & right problem and vice versa (at least sometimes). Uncomfortable muscles tells "brain" (loose term with me) that I need to make an adjustment, sometimes I over correct.



Field firing (7.62 with bipod and scope and DM18A1B1 10gr, 4000fps ammo) at 109yds.
Wind was averaging 8.8 from 150 degress with respect to the bullet path. First round was 2.6 mils low and .4 mils left. I adjusted knobs. Out of 20 rounds fired, I hit 1 inch bull 4 times. Other rounds were stretched out to the left over a 10 inch swathe. I didn't write the NPA checks down, but they ranged from 1 four to several threes and twos and about half ones (the average was over 2). The main issue was losing eye relief after opening eyes. I was trying to fire with no rear bag, bipod only and butt of rifle was lower down cauing my neck to have to crane back a bit farther than normal. So my head was "nodding" forward during the 20 count. Pushing down on the stock with my check made the "crane" problem worse as my head was lower down. I will have to get my head up higher next time to avoid the craning.
I'm glad I remembered the BM18A1B1 ammo, it is good for something like this. Sort of half way between dry firing and real firing.
I also need to figure out how to manage paper in the field in the wind. Worst case I have to take it out of my pack, write on it and put it back in my pack.

dry firing

(7.62 bipod, rear bag)
1 1
2 1 (2=right)
1 2 (2=right)

(5.56 bipod & rear bag)
1 1
1 1
1 1
(tried to be real careful. Had to change elevation of bipod 4 times, each time elevation of target changed. With the 14.5 barrel, the bipod had more "leverage")

(.303B)
4 3
2 2
2 1
(tightened sling twice)

(.22LR)
3 2 (3=low right, right)(2=right)
1 1
1 2 (2=low)

4 2 (4=hi, hi, hi)(2=right)
1 1
1 2 (2=hi)

(.22LR)
1 1
1 1
1 1
(key seems to be to relax and take as much tension out of the position as possible - with the 4 result in the previous "round" I think I brought some tension to the session in my brain)

(.22LR)
2 1 (2=left)
1 1
1 1

2014-05-10
2200-2330
70F
5 mph SE

Activity: Fired 10 rounds LC 62gr gT out of 5.56 with LP scope on 3.5x and NVD (no IR). We had half moon, though cloud cover was about 50%. Only the brighest 2 dozen stars were visible. Lighting, thunder and rain around, only light drizzle falling on me. Used NPA check before each round. Walked back and forth to targets between first four rounds. NPA checks were:

4, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2 ... most of the twos were due to working on eye relief due to stock positioning. This is new rifle, one week old, still getting used to proper stock position was various firing positions.
The first round was 3.5 inches low, so I cranked up 7 clicks (1/2 moa knobs) the second two were .5 inches high, so I cranked down 1 click. Fourth round was .5 inch low, but I decided to "FFE" the next six rounds. Five of them were on the 1 inch bill, 1 was .5 inch high. I adjusted the stock two more times during these last six rounds to try to get a good cheek weld and good eye relief. Important point was that I think the NPA checks helped. I'm usually "around" the bull with every round, but tonight I had more "on the bull" ... so I'm seeing an improvement already.

So goal will be 30 dry fires with the .22LR each day (150 per week minimum) and I'll try to do at least 30 rounds in the field three nights during the week.

NPA ratio for the day (all combined) 91/64 = 1.42

 

[Ravenblack]

I use Eley Match. I used to use Tenex, but it is pricey. The difference between the two is purely quality control. In fact that's the difference between all the pip nosed Eley rounds - Quality control.

Each machine is highly regulated, but if one drops below their perfect production criteria, then the ammo is downgraded. It may only be one round dud in 10,000, but it drops down a grade for the whole batch of 100,000's. That means the cheaper Match is simply Tenex that wasn't 100%, only 99.9%!

The other good consistent ammo is Eley Edge.

As for misfires - Your 1 in 200 is something I would not live with. 1 in 200 suggests poor quality control, and that suggests even the good rounds aren't comparable with each other.

I have had 2 dud shots (caused by primer failure to ignite. Just rotated the round and they fired off okay). 2 in 24,000 shots using Match.

 

[wigwamitus]

1 in 200 result could be partially due to failure to seat correctly. I'm using POS Mossberg 715 which is same as Mossberg 702 with plastic shell to add rails.
I see ftf problems on my AR style rifles (7.62 and 5.56) about as often and a couple of wacks on the bolt assist fixes those.

Is this the Eley Match in question? I had about 900 of those but traded them because they were subsonic. I was trying to shoot out to 200yds and 300yrds so wanted something supersonic, though 1200fps with 40gr only gets you maybe 50yds of supersonic before the round goes subsonic. Maybe subsonic is more accurate at short range because there is no trans-sonic barrier to worry with.

Eley Match Ammo 22 Long Rifle 40 Grain Lead Flat Nose Box of 500 (10

 

[natdscott]

I have had 2 dud shots (caused by primer failure to ignite. Just rotated the round and they fired off okay). 2 in 24,000 shots using Match.

I second the recommendation. I am probably 2 cases into Eley Target, Club, and Match in combination use, and some testing of lots of Pistol Match and Tenex.

I haven't had a single ignition failure yet.

I will mention, though, that when I could get it, keeping a case of CCI 0035 Standard Velocity on hand was a priority. In my opinion, it is good for everything else that a .22 can do with moderate precision. In the last 5,000 round case, I had one round fail to fire.

-Nate

 

[Ravenblack]

Yup, Subsonic. I go for around 1060 FPS.

The thing is, during supersonic/subsonic transition the round will lose stability and therefore accuracy. If you want to go supersonic and accurate, you need to be able to reach the target whilst still cleanly supersonic - staying out of the transonic zone. I stay subsonic - and the rifle even has slight choking to give that last bit of help.

 

[wigwamitus]

... If you want to go supersonic and accurate, you need to be able to reach the target whilst still cleanly supersonic - staying out of the transonic zone...

Makes sense, another layer of the onion pealed back.


==

But oh my at Midway it is running 34 cents a round - I'm hoping I can find something better than that!

==
I see it on "gunbot" from 30 cents and up.

I see it on gun broker from 17 cents and up .. "Buy Now" price looks like 20 cents.

So about double the price of the AM22. I think I paid 10 cents for Eley Match at local gun store, but limit was 100 per day, so took awhile to get 1000, now they don't have it. They usually don't have any .22LR.

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-05-11

dry firing (prone .22LR with sling and iron sites)

4 2 (4=rt, rt, rt)(2=low&rt)
1 1
1 2 (2=rt)

4 2 (4=rt, rt, lo-rt))lo-rt)
1 1
1 2 (2=left)

Problem with these two above sequences probably, was trying to rush it.

1 1
2 1 (2=rt)
2 1 (2=rt)

1 1
1 1
1 2 (2=rt)

==
dry firing .22LR with harris bipod set at 21.5 inches for sitting position
1 1
1 1
1 1
(seemed easy the first time)
3 2
1 1
1 2
(tried moving my body for the first three dry fires, then shifted back to moving bipod. Maybe best idea is to be able to move either)

==
dry firing .22LR with sling and iron sites standing
5 was low every time, stopped after 5 fails
==
dry firing (prone .22LR with sling and iron sites)
2 1 (hi, left)
1 1
1 1

Today's combined (including 5 failed standing attempts) ratio 65/42 (65 npa checks / 42 dry fires) = 1.55

 

[Vormulac]

Another vote for Eley Match/Club here - although only a relatively new shooter I've been through over a thousand rounds with no duds or issues of any kind.

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-05-12

dry firing.

(.22LR with sling) In an attempt to increase the difficulty of the NPA checks, and hence the value of the exercise, I decreased the size of the aiming points, from 3/4 inch circles to 5/16 inche circles. And I changed out the iron sites for a 3-9x AimSports (POS) scope set at 3x. This means that an NPA check must now meet a higher level of tolerance to pass.

5 2 (5=lo-rt, lo-rt, rt, rt)(2=rt)
2 2 (2=lo-rt)(2-rt)
1 1
(yes, it is harder, it feels like I'm starting over!)

(5.56 with scope on 3.5x and Harris 6-9 inch bipod)
1 2
6 3
5 4
(I have to move bipod down 2 clicks for each change to lower elevation and up 2 clicks for each change to higher elevation)

(back to .22LR with sling and 3x scope)
5 2 (5=lo-rt, lo-rt, lo, hi-rt)(2=rt)
2 2 (2=lo-rt)(2=lo-rt)
4 3 (4=lo, rt, rt)(3=hi-lt, lo-rt)

1 3 (3=hi, rt)
1 1
2 2 (2=hi)(2=hi)

3 1 (3=lo-rt, rt)
3 1 (3=lt, lo)
2 1 (2=rt)

1 1
3 3 (3=up, up)(3=up, rt)
1 1

4 3 (4=lo, lo=rt, lo)(3=rt, rt, lo)
1 3 (3=rt, rt, lo)
1 3 (3=lo, rt)

(yup, feels like I am starting over, but I think that is ok. Increasing the tolerance seems indicated. I'm shooting at 30 foot distance on the living room floor, so making the aim point smaller simulates a greater distance and when outside, I usually shoot farther than 30 foot)

==
Well after a week of "ramping up" this exercise, I do not want to bore folks, so I'll come back with some weekly updates for a while ... and if it really goes six months, I'll probably shift to monthly updates after a few weekly ones. I really appreciate the suggestions, nudges, logic, etc. to get me going down this path. I can see that this is a good path, the fog has cleared just a tiny bit!!!

today's ratio NPA/dry fires was 98/42 = 2.33 ... this is new baseline after changing aiming point size.

 

[Deviant Nation]

Maybe I don't know how to work something but I can't get the link at the bottom of the original post to work???? When I click on it it goes to the drop box website but then the website says it doesn't exist.