[westpointranger]

I keep hearing stories of people who can get .5 to .25" MOA from off-the-shelf hunting rifles. I know some of these are "big fish stories" but some are from people I greatly respect. Is it just that the person happened to get a really good gun or is it that they really know how to use it?

 

[Jeff_850]

well that depends
the ruger m77 i shot yesterday was around 2.5 MOA... i know thats not my fault
those sporer weight barrel type hunting rifles generally shoot better than that but theres always a lemon
say a remington 700p or a bushmaster varminter or other rifles built for precision:
most should shoot between 1/4 and 1/2 moa but they get into peoples hands who will say they are 1/2 - 3/4 moa shooters
i know people who claim to have a 3/4 moa shooter and i fire it... i hold a 1/2 moa group without much effort

 

[boisedarc]

Many people will shoot three shot groups instead of five. Five is the real deal. Also alot will post a picture of an awsome group they fired and claim it as their rifles potential, but they dont show you the other four that were fired that same outing. Alot simply dont know how to measure a group. In the benchrest world a gun that will agg at or below a .200 is competitive on a national level. 1/4 moa is right at .25, so to entertain the thought of an unmodified rifle being a true 1/4 moa weapon is a bit tough to believe. If you can consistantly hold a true 1/2 moa group you are doing very well as a shooter.

 

[Jeff_850]

some companies guarentee 1/4 MOA
the ones that give a 1/2 MOA guarentee believe me there is NO guarnetee at all that it will shoot 1/4 MOA
i just wont be shocked if the right shooter picks it up and shoots spectacualr 1/4 moa groups out of it
and agreed 3 shot groups could just be luck... 5 shot groups are the real deal
i think that some of the low cost precision built guns can achieve 1/4 moa if the shooter can
ive gotten lucky 5 shot groups that were around .1 MOA... it happens it'll be difficult to replicate and i might not ever do it again

 

[Yimmy]

re

How long does it take you to shoot a 5 shot group anyway?

 

[Jeffvn]

[No message]

 

[Jeffvn]

Its the rifle, the shooter, AND the ammo.

Shooters, like sports personalities, can have off days. In my experience, rifles generally do not have on or off days. Some ammo is inherently better in the accuracy department than other ammo (like Federal Gold Medal Match as compared with Federal green box hunting ammo).

With a pistol you can accurately determine its inherent accuracy, with a given load, by using a ransom rest. I've seen several attempts at making such a device for rifles, but no one seems to have perfected a ransom rest for a rifle so far.

No question, most people will only show you their best group of the day/month/year and call it a 1/4 MOA rifle. That is why my commentaries on my rifles (Patriot and the Hammonds), normally end with a commentary that if I do my part, the rifle certainly holds up its end of the bargain. If you look at Mel's commentary and review of the Patriot Arms Genisus, it shot lights out with most ammo and under most circumstances. Mel is a conservative guy and put in his disclaimer about he might have got a good one - and that they may not all shoot as good as his did. My Patriot shoots every bit as good as Mel's demo rifle did - meaning if I do my part, the rifle holds up its end of the bargain and will shoot 1/2 MOA or smaller groups, every group, every time out (provided I use match grade ammo).

Some rifles and rifle builders are better than others, that is why we pay some serious $$$ to buy those rifles.

For the best groups size with a non-benchrest rifle, you'll need at least a minute between shots to keep the barrel heating is a nominal amount. My best groups seem to show up waith between 2 to 2.5 minutes between shots. That is not realistic in a sniper or other competition, but you do the best you can to try to keep barrel heating to a minimum.

JeffVN

 

[madgunsmith]

None of the above.

I remember the dark days twenty years or so ago. Back then a one minute sporter was a rare jewel and two minute rifles were the the norm.

But today things are much different. I used to think that today's barrels are much better than those of yesteryear, but I'm really not so sure.

I think that the biggest reason why accuracy has improved so much is the bullet. Today's bullets are much, much better than those of only a few years ago. I am specifically talking about Sierra bullets and the Nosler ballistic tip. These bullets are special and I invite you to weigh them on a digital scale. They are so uniform that it is scary.

I see old rifles shooting superb groups when loaded with Sierras or the Nosler ballistic tip. And these are the old two minute guns from years gone by.

Another reason why accuracy is so improved today is that reloading dies are much better made. If you use RCBS or Redding dies to load Sierra or Nosler bullets, you should achieve sub moa with a good rifle and a good scope.

A good load should be loaded to about 90% loading density. And a good scope usually means something like a Leupold etc.

I think that a quality rifle with a good scope should shoot at least moa when properly loaded with Sierra or Nosler bullets.

I think we have to thank the bench rest guys for creating the demand for great bullets and great dies.

Mad

 

[Jeff_850]

ammo (federal gold medal match) does play a role in modern rifles abilty to shoot well
1 minute wait between shots is fine for a .223 or .308 with a heavy barrel
maybe 2 1/2 minutes for a sporter barrel
but 5 shots in 5 minutes should be fine

 

[madgunsmith]

One of the reasons Federal Match ammo is so good, is that they use Sierra bullets.

Mad

 

[Jeff_850]

true
also i think that rifles like the 700P with thier heavier barrels helps equally as much as the ammo used

 

[madgunsmith]

Barrels are better today, but I really feel that improved bullets are the big reason behind today's higher level of accuracy.

I've seen older rifles that were always two minute of angle guns suddenly perk up and start shooting with Sierra and Nosler bullets.

It's amazing.

Mad

 

[Jeff_850]

perhapes i should try some Federal 168 gr Match ammo in my friends Ruger in .30-06 and see if it can get any better groups
there known for hit or miss accuracy though so i woudlnt be suprised its not any better

 

[boisedarc]

I do agree that ammunition has greatly improved over the years, it is no secret why Fed GMM is so good, I have never seen a .308 that wouldn't shoot SMK's with 4895. But alot else has improved as well. Barrel making hasn't really changed in decades, but the steel quality has changed a great deal, todays steel is far superior to the steel that was used even just 10-15 years ago. The machining process are much tighter today. And optics are continuing improve all of the time. But even with all of the improvements we've seen, still some rifles shoot, some don't. You can buy a barrel from the best barrel manufacturer in the world, and all though you may have a better chance at getting a shooter, there is no guarantee you will. Some shoot, some don't.

 

[Spoon]

I agree with madgunsmith. Proper reloading is a major plus in shooting. I have factory rifles that can shoot 5 shot, maybe 10 shot groops 1/2 moa or under with nosler bullets. Always under 3/4 moa. It just takes good handloads and shooting technique.

 

[Jeff_850]

as long as the ammo is consistant weather its federal match or handloads the rifle should be able to put 3, 5 or 10 rounds in the same sized group provided the environment doesnt change or it isnt compensated properly and the ammount of time given for the barrel to cool
just harder to get lucky with a 10 shot group