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Discussion Starter #1
I finished 13 cent killers last week. Great reading and a no BS type of book. Some more thing from the book worth mentioing. One of the things they talked about was that 1000 yard shots are not common and in fact it is stupid to shoot that far unless you have no other choice. In fact they were taught a skilled sniper should be able to stalk closeer than that, and if they can't they are a crappy sniper. There are exceptions to this rule, but 1000 yard shots in the field have such a low hit probality that you need to stock closer. In fact the 3-500 m range is about ideal, depending on the situation (remember METT-TC)



Another good point was that many of the snipers got cockey and that got them killed. They started to think they were too good and underestimated the enemy. In fact they old gunney taught and believed the NVA snipers were better than the US snipers. They knew the terrain, had more combat experiance and to prove it he pointed out that the NVA could get close to the US troops and be very devastating, yet slip away. In fact the gunny was more impressed with a sniper that could get close for a sure shot, remain undected then get away after taking the shot. He said the NVA were masters at that. The advantages the US had was we were better equiptment, supplies and support. Point here is two fold. 1 never underestimate the enemy. 2 Know the advantages and weakness of yourself and the enemy so you can adjust your taictics accordingly.

Over all this is an exellant book with mant lessons that can be learned from it.
 

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Didnt know 13 CK had that, still need to read it.

1000 yrd shots are good against paper targets IMO, but thats a good point about the stalking to get closer, while considering METT-T
 

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Very well said, Eka. It would be scary to be a new sniper, going up against an enemy who had been sniping the French and others for years, in the same jungle he grew up in. They hit accurately, from very close, and were still able to get away. Some of them had a very decent long range game to.

Taking a look at a Nagant with it's stubby little scope and knowing the power you have in support and equipment, it also sounds easy to grow complacent, if not overconfidant.
 

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its all a judgement call on how close you need to get- how far away you can identify the enemy, how far away you can hit the enemy given the current environmental factors, if you will be able to see the area better if you come in closer, if it would expose you to enemies to come in closer or not, etc
 

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i say--if you can hit a human sized target @ 100yds then go for it when u have the chance--its just that much easier to get away ect.--but yes--closer shots could also build confidense and make u learn more about stalking and hiding--my thoughts


dom
 

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re

To be honest, if your not going to be attempting shots past 500m's, I don't see why you should bother taking a sniper rifle.

If your game is to get within 3-500m's, you would probably be better served with a standard (or maybe heavy barreled) assault rifle, with medium powered scope. That way you don't have to worry about needing a back up weapon such as an MP5 or M4.
 

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its not always short range, not always long range
at 300-500m i wouldnt want to be shooting a 5.56mm at thier center of mass, i'd rather be shooting a 7.62mm just so i know they will go down every time
5.56mm is better for closer ranges where the rounds fragment and im not stalking to within 200y of an enemy with an M-16 if i dont have to
if im say 400m out with a .308 it would be much harder for them to spray and get a lucky shot to hit me
 

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+1 Jeff with the 5.56 and 7.62 comparisin at ranges.

If you can get closer, then do it, but if METT-T limits you to 600+ then by all means you take it.

I would never do a sniper job with an assault rifle. Because if you infiltrate in the OBJ area thinking that you will take a 100-200 shot, every thing might go FUBAR and push you back to 600+ for the shot. I'd definetly wouldnt take a center mass shot with a 5.56 at 600. My point is you have to prepaired for close range shots as well as long range shots. The situation can change.

IMO
 

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Fieldcraft can allow you to operate for any condition you need to with the bolt gun. In WW2, it seems most snipers shot from around 400 m, and closer in urban work. In Vietnam I bet the average is the same, or less. Even at shorter ranges, a pro can fire a shot without the enemy knowing where he is or seeing him leave. Problems that come up are countersniping, like Eka mentioned in the book, and what happened to Buddy Bolton, who engaged the point element of what turned out to be an NVA company and was surrounded.
 

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Firstly, I have no intentions personally of being a sniper, I think it would bore me to death, but I do have a lot of time for those who do go in for it.

Ergo I don't have a great understanding of how close a sniper would want to get to his target - however when it comes to shooting, I would be perfectly happy to use a standard (accurate) assault rifle out to 500m's with a 4-6X scope. Especially when you have the time to take all marksmanship principles into effect, such as a sniper does.

5.56mm may not be the ideal man-stopper, especially if it strikes a limb, however no man will remain in the fight when hit by one centre mass.

I don't really see the point in sub MOA bolt guns shooting larger rounds until their is a need to shoot 500m's+, until then it isnt economical.
 

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On other thing to consider is that at 600-800m we are at our optimal advantage. The shots are still doable for a semi-competent sniper, yet are extremely difficult for the average enemy soldier carrying a battle rifle, especially if you are properly concealed. If you are engaging below 300m, your fieldwork better be superb, as they can hit you as easy as you can them.

MEL
 

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at 300m or closer they might just unload in your general direction, even if the enemy cant shoot worth a damn one of them might get lucky and hit you just from putting so much lead in the air and randomly shooting where they herd the sound come from, your concealed but not necasarily behind cover that will stop a round
 

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Jeff_850 said:
your concealed but not necasarily behind cover that will stop a round
Exactly

Question here, lets say the enemy has an arty battery or mortars where your target is. Once they heard the shot and where its from, would you think the enemy would use those weapons?
 

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To counter snipers, I would say a professional army is a lot more likely to utilise DF than risk exposing themselves to lay down rifle fire.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The thing to realize this school was in Vietnam, ie jungle area. Remember what METT-TC means. Mission Enemy Time Terrain -Tacitcs Civilains The situation in say Iraq or Germany is diffrent. In the jungle with the humidity and cover gettng closer than you would in Iraq makes sense. Adapt to the situation is the key to success. In fact Alexander the Great's success was that he adapted his formationsand how he used them to the given situation. If you blindly follow the manual it will bite you in the rear eventually. Understand the principal behind the rules and you are way ahead.
 

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Good point, Eka. It seems in the Culbertson books most of the long shooting was either in the rice paddies or around bases where there was elevation. Marine rifle companies are deadly, and at the time they were using 7.62 NATO, which could defeat a lot of cover. NVA and VC snipers still ambushed and engaged them from very close, however. Sounds like usually 2-3 shots, and then they would boogie. The Marines would pour on the fire too, but by then, or by the time they called in support, it was too late. And these engagements happened under 300 meters, because that was what the terrain dictated. They had advantages though, like tunnel complexes and such, but their fieldcraft was amazing.

In the Carlos Hathcock books, they talk about the sniper who tried to lure him out routinely making 700 meter + shots on Marines at their base with a Nagant and 3.5x scope, which is pretty outstanding. He shot from the same position though, so that made it easier. After all, he wanted to be found, and had created a dummy bed area, used rice to attract birds as his early warning system, managed to shoot Burke's canteen and was actually drawing a bead on Carlos as he was killed.

Likewise, US snipers engaged them and beat them regularly at ranges from 100-1000 meters with their bolt rifles. Being used as part of a rifle company meant that as soon as shots were fired, the sniper team would dash right up to the front of the action and surgically remove the threats and ambushers. Man, it doesn't get much more dangerous.

So while enemy massed fire can get lucky, it was a part of life there, just another deadly part of the job that needed to be confronted, and the bolt rifles did really well with infantrymen to support them. Arty or mortars or airstrikes could be called, yeah, but by then the sniper was either gone, or he had killed the radioman and help couldn't be immediately called anyway.
 

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Yimmy:
perhapes they woudlnt poke thier heads up for a sniper to shoot at them
that woudlnt stop them from calling in a mortar strike on the suspected location of the sniper's hide
smart sniper would begin to move before this would be done
 

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re

Flight time for a 105mm isn't -that- long. :D
 

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Re: re

Yimmy said:
Flight time for a 105mm isn't -that- long. :D
Yea, but if you are close enough they cant call in a 105 mm/airstrike etc since it is in the blast zone.
 
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