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This is a new thread based on a concept Mel and I are working, please leave detailed info and questions so we may shape this to everyones needs. Based on some of the info on the previous threads about a shooting course, we could run one in two locations, either Wibaux, Montana or Bismarck, Dakota. Either way people flying in would have to fly to Bismarck, its the closest to either destination. My ranch in Bismarck has the facilties to accomodate 10 shooters in bunk house living. Below is my intial thought on what Mel and I can run at my place.


Essentially, the course and pricing would include meals and housing for the 5 days. It would seat no more than 10 shooters and 5 shooting at any given time, with the other 5 spotting and calling wind. There would be detailed course instruction and practical application in wind calling and mirage reading. the course would shoot from zeroing at 100 out to 1000+ yards. Some shooting at angles greater than 30 degrees would be inclduded as well as rapid bolt from 200-600 yards. The shooters would shoot from the prone primarily using what ever support the prefer or have with them. there would not be any bench shooting except when shooting out of the high angle position, which is from a barn and would utilize a bench support as well as shooting from the other postions. The course would shoot the better half of each day, and utilize the data and prac app to master the cold bore shot each morning and evening. Additional instruction would take place in the evenings but has yet to be determined. Ideally im thinking there would be about 700-1000 rounds needed for the course, which would be at the shooters expense. At this point the caliber selection would be at the discretion of the shooter, ie 223, 308, 300.. .50 may not be permissiable.
 

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Sounds pretty good.

Do you have a skill level in mind? Would the same class be able to handle amateurs(myself) and people with alot more experience(everyone else here)? Or would you have different skill level courses, or recommend that people have already had a more basic class of some sort so that all the students would be more on par with each other? I know I would learn a ton if in a class with people with alot of experience, but I might feel kind of bad if someone was stuck with me calling out wind 5mph on their 6 when it was actually 25 mph on their 12. :shock:

John
 

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Discussion Starter #3
skill level

With ten shooters per class, and 5 shooting while 5 spotting, the knowledge shared between shooters would compliment the beginers. There would be some review and classroom instruction intially and daily. The instructors would constantly be teaching and helping those who need it the most. To include after hours. This after is what your paying for. The instruction would be given by a Marine and Army sniper, maybe one more, plus we would most likely be able to hae an armorer there as well. After regsitering we would know what weapons were coming and the armorer ideally would be able to recomend spare parts to bring or no where to get them, if needed to keep shooters in the fight. with that after registration we would begin by sending a booklet out of everything the shooter needed to be familiar with and open a Q&A, either here or thru mail to help facilitate the classroom process. That way upon arrival we would be at 10 percent classroom, 90 percent practical application. End state whether shooters are already trained, or just learning everyones skill level will improve, and we would provide a plaque at the end...
 

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I hope this question isn't too dumb, but how much food will be offered? I eat a lot and wouldn't want to listen to a growling tummy for five days. :(

Scatch Maroo
 

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im kinda with scatch, he's seen me eat... im a farkin dumpster.

Add a t-shirt and I think this would work. As long as 1000 yard shots are not required, The only rifle I currently own that would really reach out there reliably would be in 243. And thats only good for around 500 yards. Id hate to have to buy new equipment to do this course. Allthough, it might be a good excuse to buy an sc3 in .260 remington. :lol:

One last question, whats the pricing looking like?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Pricing

At a minimum I cant see pricing being under 1000k dollars. This includes food, and that would be a moderate amount. I couldnt imagine making it like "hell week" for you. The money will cover board and feeding, as well as the oeprations, ammuniton will be purchased by the shooter, we will arrange a ammo store in the area so your request can be made, and i will find some discounting for that.

this is a long range shooting course, if your packing somthing that doesn hit 1000, well then youd be just watching on the days we shoot past 600. I would recomend bringing the appropriate weapon as 500yds isnt quite long range.
 

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I'm going to chime in and offer a few of my own thoughts.

My method of teaching, especially for people that are paying, is to insure that something is being learned. This course would be away from my home, so I would have the extra time to devote to help out as much as possible. The small size of the classes would be a big plus also....

MEL
 

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Sounds like it might be fun... but to be honest i would rather buy a new rifle or fix one up instead of spending a few thousand bucks on a coarse. :? If i didnt know anything about sniping or long range shooting allready i would do the coarse... but im not quite sure what it would offer to people like myself.

I could use some help with wind estimation and moving targets at an unkown distance... but thats about it.

BC
 

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Yes... he is in a better place now. There were more names i wish i could add... but it says signature to long...

BC
 

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Re: Pricing

seanc954 said:
At a minimum I cant see pricing being under 1000k dollars.
1,000,000 dollars, eh? Sounds steep, but I think I can swing it. ;-)

Scatch Maroo
 

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Im curious, will there be a classroom portion of this, or more accurately, what will be the ratio of classroom to practical application? Will we spend the first part of the morning learning and then the last part shooting, or will a concept be explained and then practiced?

Im just curious on your teaching method. I see this as really more of a long range hunters/LRPR course, as fieldcraft isnt slated (to the extent of my knowledge) to be covered.
 

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$1K for 5 days (including 2 hots and cot) is workable for me.

I may not NEED all of the instruction, but I truly believe that there is something to be said for continuing education and practice. I'm VERY interested. Plus, if we all buy the ammo through Mel, that pretty much gives him a solid order of Lapua match ammo doesn't it!! Depending upon the situation and training schedule, I might bring the Hammonds 6.5x284 out for a run.

Speaking from experience, spooting 200 rounds a day can and will pound the crap out of you, if you're shooting .308 long-range loads. I suspect, some of that fatigue can be moderated if the shooting is spread across the day fairly evenly, instead of shooting multiple rapid fire strings of 5 to 7 rounds each.

I have no problem shooting with less experienced shooters, and do it all the time (I look at it as my duty to help bring newer shooters along - if I can help - generally I keep my mouth shut unless asked), but would hope to get some personal attention in the areas that I need help too (cold bore shots at long distance, some wind work, etc.).

I'm looking for some insight and practice in areas that I cannot get at home, like ranging and shooting unknown distance targets on level, uphill and downhill situations. Cold bore shots in the siame situations.

Shooting movers at all distances, in all conditions, from all positions. Follow-up shots on movers. Multiple position shooting (including offhand, sitting, and kneeling - hasty sling, cuffsling supported with rocks, bipod, etc.). Yeah its gonna kick your and my ass big time, but that's the game we are talking about!!!

Shooting in situations with multiple shooters and multiple targets, including multiple movers assigned to each shooter. Spotting practice and anything else you guys can think of. I "think" I have a pretty good grasp of the shorter range stuff down (at least in my mind I do :D ), but believe shorter range work can be of benefit especially on movers.

Teamwork is critical on all of this and I'm up for that too.

JeffVN
 

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Spade - I think, but would like clarification from Mel, etc, that we would Listen first, then put into practice each of the concepts that we were talking about. Each concept would build upon other concepts previously covered, like reticle ranging, wind, spotting for each other.

For example, on day 4, I think we would watch Mel or someone else reticle range an unknown distance target sitting across a valley, but down hill at about a 20% grade, then shoot that same target with a coldbore shot. switch with your spotter who now shoots the same target. The team score is recorded. After we all take the shots, then the class would discuss what distance we used for the shot, how we got to that number, and whether any of us were close to hitting said target.

JeffVN
 

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BC - I know this type of class is, from your perspective, too basic. I mean give me a break you don't need to take leave and then pay to go to the rifle range. I'll do it because its a diversion from my job, its NOT my regular job.

But, to be totally honest, it is the opportunity to shoot with guys that have you current skill level that I would be hoping to see in this class.

I look at it this way, I prefer to play golf with guys that are better than me. I can learn from them whether they think they are teaching me or not. Watching how people go about doing what they do can be instructive. Plus, I'm competitive enough to try to match their skill level when I'm playing with them.

I do better when Randy is pushing me to do better - basically because I don't like doing poorly and I don't like to get beat.

just my $0.02.

JeffVN
 

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dangit, you guys are just FORCING me to buy one of mels rifles huh? I dont suppose if i paid for it, i could use it while i was there and then have you FFL it home for me? LOL
 

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Hell yeah that would work, but a 750 -1,000 round shooting week would be a pretty brutal break-in procedure.

JeffVN
 

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ehh, it'll show me what its worth. Like my daddy always said about buying a new car.

"Drive it like you stole it for the first week, that way you'll know if its going to give you problems for the next 10 years"

Oh, I wanted to ask, just for the heck of it. Would we get to do any night shooting? Just for fun I mean. I do alot of yote hunting and it would bring my game up if I could have time to do the night thing. Plus I think everyone would get a kick out of shooting some frozen glowstick pops at 500+ yards at night.... if your good enough you get a bright spray of green as they go.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
the course

The course is being designed and curtailed to fit the intrests of the participants. However the number of rounds fire and method of instruction is being presented by the course...ie its what you get out of it. 1000 rounds in a week, is what it takes, to master rapid bolt, long range, wind calls etc...it requires practical application hundreds if not thousands of times to know for yourself that your dead on.... If someone is going to pay 1000+ for a course, be sure there will be no pussy footin around. Food, weather, sleep, frustration experiencing all of these factors is what will generate improvment...and foster competion. If your new to it all youll learn alot, if youve been doing it then its playing golf with colleagues..either way, everyone will improve their skills and get aquainted with others in the community. My ranch also offers year round hunting accomodations, which we would allow course participants to stay free of charge during hunting season, deer, bird whatever your flavor.
 
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