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does the M-16A4 need to go???

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Discussion Starter #1
ok this was and has been a hot topic in the past
probably mentioned in the 11 weeks i was gone but whatever i have some feedback from using them on sand hill in infantry type environments and this is all i can say:
IM NOT TAKING THIS PIECE OF CRAP

ok i was in favor of it, they are easy to point and shoot and handle for any soldier to use, mine could put 6 shots in a dime sized area so they shoot ok considering they arnt using any precision reloads, just standard crappy M855 ammo
they function flawless until a single piece of dirt gets into the extractor claw
perhapes my infantry training brigade pos M-16A4 was this way because its 8-10 years old but doing 3-5 second rushes is exposing the weapon to enough dirt to jam it
then during a dust storm my weapon jammed on me
it was on a moving target practice range... was given 40 rounds and 40 targets, i got 17 rounds off, so i got 16 targets
ok now then when i mean jam, i mean the extractor fails to grip the end of the round, so the bolt swings open with the brass still chambered, and a 2nd round then tries to feed and gets stuck
you have to lock the bolt to the rear, take the mag out, knock the round out with your finger, slam the bolt forward and extract the round, lock the bolt back to the rear, slam the mag back in and release the bolt catch... they will have you put the weapon on safe too
and when this happens once, bet it will happen every time

i dont mean to be a traitor, here are my experiences on sand hill, and not just from my weapon but from several of my friends
i would like to hear other peoples input
 

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When you say its probably 8-10 years old... im guessing you mean the A2 then? Not the A4... I dont think the Army uses the A4 for boot camp or regular training... i may be wrong but im pretty sure its just the standard M-16A2.

The M-16A4 is the US Marine Corps new rifle... the US Army "standard issue" is still the M-16A2... combat units recieve the M-16A2's untill they get deployed. Now... if and when you do get deployed... you wont have a full size rifle unless you in the rear with the gear... US Army combat issue rifles are M-4A3's with usually red dot optics... AN/PEQ-2A IR Laser pointer... and a forward pistol grip. This is the rifle load out that i saw 90% of the Army guys carrying in Iraq. And if you dont like the rifle's... i would suggest fullfilling a SAW gunner spot. The SAW is more reliable than the M-16A2 / A4's and M-4 carbines... (just dont use the rifle mag's in the SAW and you'll be fine).

This is an M-16A4


BC
 

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Welcome back Jeff. I said no, too much effort has been invested into the M16 series rifles to abandon them. All firearms will jam eventually once they're dirty. Most of the good AR/M16 style weapons are pretty reliable. Since you have a training gun I wouldn't be surprised if it had been "ridden hard and put away wet" as it were. If we did go with a whole new infantry rifle, it would take years to work the kinks out of it, just like it did with the original M16.

This doesn't mean they couldn't stand some more improvements however.

Again, welcome back.
 

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Jeff_850 said:
ok now then when i mean jam, i mean the extractor fails to grip the end of the round
Use the chamber brush more often... the reason it fails to extract is because the chamber is built to such tight tollerances that when you dont fully clean it... or it becomes naturally fouled from prolonged firing... you will either Pull A Rim (meaning it pulls the rim off the casing because the chamber is to dirty and the casing is stuck in the chamber) or have a standard FTE (failure to extract... meaning the bolt / bolt carrier cycled rearward and the extractor failed to extract the casing becuase the casing is stuck in the chamber).

Jeff_850 said:
so the bolt swings open with the brass still chambered, and a 2nd round then tries to feed and gets stuck, you have to lock the bolt to the rear, take the mag out, knock the round out with your finger, slam the bolt forward and extract the round, lock the bolt back to the rear, slam the mag back in and release the bolt catch... they will have you put the weapon on safe too and when this happens once, bet it will happen every time
Here is the way to fix a F.T.E.

1: Lock bolt to rear position
2: Tilt rifle to the side to let loose round in breach fall out... dont bother picking up the round... it is more than likely damaged beyond use.
3: Remove Magazine
4: Hit the bolt release button and cycle the action untill the stuck casing is extracted and ejected.
5: Re-Insert Magazine... fresh mag is prefferable.
6: Charging handle back... let it go... hit the assist... now lets go!!!

Here is the standard weapon malfunction drill

1: Check ejection port for stuck casing and / or if bolt carrier is not fully forward / to see if your mag might be empty.
2: Hit magazine with palm of hand to ensure it is locked into the mag well
3: Pull the charging handle back while leaning the rifle to the right side to allow any loose rounds to fall out.
4: Let charging handle go and hit the forward assist.

I dont know what they teach you there... they more than likely have somthing similar to this... but i thought i would throw this info out there just incase you need or want it.

BC
 

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Discussion Starter #5
well our M-16A4s were old as ****
they WERE M-16A4... the sight rails and all
the infantry training brigades are using the M-16A4s, basic combat training brigades are using M-16A2s
we use the M-16A4s and close combat optic (aimpoint) , no pistol grip
i guess a new extractor would unfuck them M-16

the SAW never jammed on me, i have fired several thousand rounds through one

im still hoping for a sniper slot, the way i have been shooting and my PT scores, my unit has a slot open, ill have to find out if i can get it or not after i finish
 

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Ballistic_Coefficiency said:
When you say its probably 8-10 years old... im guessing you mean the A2 then? Not the A4... I dont think the Army uses the A4 for boot camp or regular training... i may be wrong but im pretty sure its just the standard M-16A2.

The M-16A4 is the US Marine Corps new rifle... the US Army "standard issue" is still the M-16A2... combat units recieve the M-16A2's untill they get deployed. Now... if and when you do get deployed... you wont have a full size rifle unless you in the rear with the gear... US Army combat issue rifles are M-4A3's with usually red dot optics... AN/PEQ-2A IR Laser pointer... and a forward pistol grip. This is the rifle load out that i saw 90% of the Army guys carrying in Iraq. And if you dont like the rifle's... i would suggest fullfilling a SAW gunner spot. The SAW is more reliable than the M-16A2 / A4's and M-4 carbines... (just dont use the rifle mag's in the SAW and you'll be fine).

This is an M-16A4


BC
Unless the Army has changed more than I can imagine, you go to war with your issued rifle in the Army. No new gear is issued except maby MOPP gear or some pre positioned missle magnets for mech infantry and Armor units. I have heard the Army was replacig the A2 with M4's, but the M4's have been around quite a while, and were first made for tank crews etc from what I understand, but SOF found out they were easier to carry and the rest of the Army is following siut.
 

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They took the M-4's from the Ranger Bn's (my bro told me this) among other units and give them to whoever is being deployed... the Army has been buying alot of M-4's recently as well. Like i said... 90% of the Army people i saw in Iraq had M-4's with red dots and some of them had AN/PEQ-2's with foregrips. Theres alot of guys who buy there own accesories and things for there weapons... the Surefire tactical foregrip with tactical light system is very popular.

BC
 

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Ballistic_Coefficiency said:
They took the M-4's from the Ranger Bn's (my bro told me this) among other units and give them to whoever is being deployed... the Army has been buying alot of M-4's recently as well. Like i said... 90% of the Army people i saw in Iraq had M-4's with red dots and some of them had AN/PEQ-2's with foregrips. Theres alot of guys who buy there own accesories and things for there weapons... the Surefire tactical foregrip with tactical light system is very popular.

BC
HOLY CRAP, the Army is actually using common sense and asapting to the situation. Hell I might re up just to see that.

EDIT: I'm not being sarcastic, the Army has done some really stupid things like the shelter haves they had until recently was the same design they used in the CIVIL WAR, thats right 1860 technonlgy.
 

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lol reminds me of some arguements we had, Jeff :D
 

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ekaphoto said:
the shelter haves they had until recently was the same design they used in the CIVIL WAR, thats right 1860 technonlgy.
Yup... shelter halves were pretty rediculously useless unless you were a midget. You combine two shelters to make enough room for one person to sleep while the other one gets rained on i guess. :roll: Thanks god for the modern day tents... you can unzip one side and connect another one... and keep doing that... to make a huge indoor town that is WMD / chemical secure!!!

BC
 

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re

You can do a lot worse than the M16 Jeff.
My issue rifle is an SA-80A1 - unless I clean it spotless and drown it in oil it jams every 30 rounds or so on average. I think the thin reciever is slightly dented or something :( .
 

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Tents? Rain? what is this rain? on that note the usmc has gotten around to issuing us the new tents(you've probably seen them BC). However, in the last two months in the field I have seen one company actually possess them, yep, headquaters co.
-as far as M4's go, our Bn just got a truckload in from some unit in Pendleton, still covered in Iraq dust. they alloted a whopping two for my company, at least our CO and XO are going to be high speed.
-I was at an EMP (enhanced markmenship program) school and some dudes had M4's, has anybody noticed that they have a bigger problem with stoppages? those ANGL-CO guys were doing immediate action like it was cool.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yimmy:
my rifle will go for an indefinite number of rounds and if you oil it its worse
oil with the slightest bit of dirt will get it then things **** up
 

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Oil is a no no... use grease for the heavy contact area's and this stuff called Eezox for every where else... sand... dirt and debris will not cling to Eezox... it is a total synthetic. You can buy it at http://www.fabten.com/online_catalog.htm

BC
 

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hey BC,
our Bn Gunner is giving us TW-25B, it may be a little heavy for '16's but a little dab is all it takes for a .50, It doesn't burn off and the sand out here doesn't seem to gum it up. Beats pouring motor oil on it, er did I say that?I think its been around for a long time but they are just now letting us use it. Comes in a little white tube, do you have any experience with it?
 

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And yet another reason I like my M-1 Garand, dirt, water oil, no fear. It may not be the lightest rifle around, but jams are rare.
 

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Pertaining to the ?- I don't want to see the m-16 platform go. Why? I believe that it is a good system w/ tons of time and money invested in R&D for it. i.e.- H&K (I have heard), has a new gas system that helps w/ build up. Plust there are so many configurations for the platform you can use it for a wide variety of missions. I can take my RRA Varmiter, use it for sniping, and then if i carry say an M4 upper, quickly swap it out at go CQB. This seems like a huge advantage to me, as opposed to carrying 2 seperate weapons.

My main complaint with the M-16 platform is the cartridge, it seems ok for my purposes of punching paper and killing prarie dogs :twisted: , but if i was to depend on the .223 w/ my life I'm not sure I would like that idea.

Solution- The XM8 in my opinion is not the answer, why? Because it still uses the .223!!! I say if you take Bushmaster's new carbon technology (which actually uses sand as a lubricant), incorporate H&k's advanced gas system, and us a more capable round such as the 6.8 SPC, then I think you have quite a capable and versatile rifle there. Am I wrong?
 

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IMHO the problem with the M-16 platform is the gas system. The gas system is a refined version of the Iver Johnson rifle from the 1930's. The USMC adapted the Iver Johnson instead of the Garand, but the first couple of battles in WW II pacific showed the systems weak point was jamming when it is dirty. Granted the M-16 to M-4 variants are much better than the Iver Johnson, but it still has the same weakness. The system used on the M-1 garand, m-14, M-1 carbine, and mini-14 are proven reliable. They tend not to be as accurate or adaptable as the M-16 platform, but for a combat weapon reliability is #1.

I believe an updated mini-14 with a med caliber round, say 260 rem would be a good way to go. The thing is get 1000 people together and you get 1000 diffrent opinions on what is best. Saying all that the M-16 platform is a very accurate system for an auto, and very adaptable. The problem is your average grunt in the field is not going to carry and sniper upper, a carbine upper etc. They just need one very reliable, versital weapon that can hit a human size target withing 300m and put them down for good.
 

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ek- I didn't mean every grunt needs to carry a sniper upper, I was just appealing to the versatility of the weapon system.
 
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