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I bought the book 13 cent killers, about the USMC snipers in Vietnam. Before buying it I was thumbing through and it talked about a guy using an M1D in 66 or 67. He was doing counter sniper duty. I didn't realize they were using them this late in the war, but then again the USMC is usually the last to get new gear. Also mentioned using 03A3 and the sniper mentioned there was noting wrong with it and preferred it over the newer rifles because it worked better in the real world, not just the world of shooting ranges. Hevent got far in the book but looks good.
 

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I like that book a lot, Eka...I'd say a few things about it but I don't want to spoil anything for you...I'll just say some of the shots they make with that M1D are phenomenal!

It really is suprising to see them still being used in that era, but it really does seem to work!

I read another book, I don't remember the title, but it had parts written by snipers in ww2, Korea, Nam, and Beirut. One of the Korea vets described how hard it was to hit a 55 gallon drum at 500 yards with the M1D and then I read "13 Cent Killers"...Shows what kind of impact the first real sniper schools had on the skills of the shooters.
 

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re

Didn't the origional M1D only have a 2.5x scope? Was this replaced in Vietnam, or was it still the standard?
 

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Yep, the original M1D's and 03-A4's had 2.5 or 3.5 scopes. They were not that great for anything beyond about 500 yards. But some people did do it. I had the oportunity to shoot a real M1D and it was a neat experience. Engaged a 300m target, but that was it.

Uptil about 67 or 68, the sniper rifles were a total hodgepodge in vietnam for both the USMC and US Army. They both standardized about that time, the USMC on the M40, the US Army on the XM21. The M1D's, very few 03-A1s (with unertls) M14's with scopes and winchester M70 target rifles were all used until that point.

MEL
 

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In a lot of the books I have read, Mel's point shows well. Students were often given the choice between the winchester and the M1D. Even in I think 68, I read of one Marine being issued an accurized M-14 as his sniper rifle.
 

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The M1D and C livedon for many years as a alternate standard sniper weapon. I met a gentleman who is former SF who was issued them to use with local forces under his guidance(sound familiar)in El Salvador in the 80s. I read that some NG units still have some in inventory(ammo would be an issue so I am not sure why they have them). I also know a of a unit that "did not exist" that used 03A4s in the anti drug operations in the 80s to avoid any indication that US forces were involved, this unit also used other nationalities weapons for the same reason.

Lets face it guys if I can hit targets at 600 iron sights, a 2.5 to 3.5X scope cant be that bad can it? My garand that I shoot in the as issued matches shoots about 4 inches high at 100 with the sights bottomed out, so I know the garand can run the distance to 1000 easy.
 

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That's kinda what I figured. You guys who shoot Perry use iron sights to hit targets at 600 yards that are scary small. I'd like to see what you could do with the aid of a 3x scope.
 

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Hitting an iron maiden at 600 with iron sights at a known distance range is one thing, hitting a half concealed, moving, and camoflaged target at an unknown distance in variable wind with a 2.5x is another. Heck, I hit a iron maiden at 300m shooting in the standing offhand position in windy conditions with the M24, would I do that if I had a choice? HECK NO :D

MEL
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Several years ago my uncle told me about a shot a sniper did in Vietnam he witnessed. There was an NVA harrassing them and spotting for morters etc. The sniper was over 1000 yars if I remember. Anyway the sniper maxed out his scope then held over and made a hit. Granted there was some luck involved as well. This was one of the longest kills in Vietnam I guess.
 

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You can hit 600m targets with iron sights? That is an achievement and a half. The furthest I can land my shots on a fig 11 target with iron sights is 400m's, while 500m's with 4X scope. I have never tried shooting past 500m's, not even with the LSW, although it is supposodly good for 800m's.
 

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Mel,

You are right, shooting unknown distance is much harder. I was just making an observation that hitting a mansized visible target is doable at 500 with the M1D. For all that wonder about the target sizes for Perry type matches here are some links, I also posted some reduced target links so you get a 600yd sight pic at 100yds etc.

http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/pics/SR1.gif
6 3/8 black 200 to 100 reduced(offhand target)

http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/pics/SR.gif
13 inch black 200yd target (shot offhand no sling support allowed)

http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/pics/SR3C.gif
300yd rapid prone target 19 inch black, sling supported 10 rds 70 sec

http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/pics/SR21.gif
300 to 100 reduced 6 1/4 black

http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/pics/MR1C.gif
600yd prone 36 inch black sling supported 10 min 10 rds slow fire

http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/pics/MR31.gif
600 to 100 reduced 5 3/4 black

Put that MR31 reduced 600 yd target up at 100, and go at it with irons, it humbles me everytime, I thinks its tougher than the real deal except for wind.
 

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Yimmy,

Its not that hard really, I was using a Garand chambered in 308, with 1967 M118 special ball 173gr. My come ups for that rifle are 100yds 0clicks, 200yds 2clicks, 300yds 9clicks, 600yds 21clicks. The rifle has NM sights, and was prepped by the USAMU for my uncle in the 70s, when he was on the unit. It was kind of intimidating to look down the range at 600yds, but when the targets come up, and you look through the sights, the front blade leaves visible black on both sides. Center up, check the come ups and let her go.
 

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600y = 546m WOW! :wink: I've met several guys who preferred iron sights over PSO on SVD/SVDS when shooting at 100-300m, but in real world, i'll rather rely on low-power scope!
 

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since Mel put it that way :lol: Very good point.

The National Match sights Mark mentioned are a special aperture and a thinner than standard front post. I don't have the measurements with me, but they are much better for fine target work than standard combat sights. That coupled with the 1 MOA click system of the Garand make things a joy.

It would be cool to see what things look like with the NM sights on your SA-80, Yimmy. Between the combat sights and that really short sight radius I know you would outshoot me with it.
 

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The NM sights are a big help. The rear is a hooded smaller .052 apeture with 1/2 moa adjustments. The front blade is a much narrower .062 blade, that makes targeting much easier at long ranges. I will see if I can photo the GI vs NM sights. Even the GI garand sights are among the best rver put on a battle rifle.
 

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mlammers said:
Even the GI garand sights are among the best ever put on a battle rifle.
Agreed!

Most other sights before and after limit you to 100 meter adjustments, and give a less than ideal sight picture. If your ballistics don't match the come-ups, you have to adjust your front sight, and even then sometimes it still doesn't exactly jive.

The only sights before the M1 I really like are the P-17/P-14 but they were zeroed at 400 meters and you have to lift them to use the smaller aperture to shoot lower. And there is a pin holding the front sight in place.

No4 Enfield is also pretty nice...Big, wide ghost ring and narrow enough post.

Swiss K-31 ain't bad at all but I prefer apertures.
 
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