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Discussion Starter #1
Hello again guys:

I have a really exciting idea that I want to share here.

First of all, I was very unhappy with the banning of the .50 BMG round in California. I started to think about ways around the ban and I think I now have a worthwhile idea.

The .50 BMG is a great round, but it might be too much of a good thing. The round has too much recoil and it uses too much powder. It also requires specialized reloading presses and other equipment. The .50 BMG is also very expensive.

I was checking out the Hornady 750 grain A Max slug and this round has a ballistic coefficient of 1.050!! With such a ballistic coefficient, you certainly do not need the high launch speed of the .50 BMG. It would be easy to launch such a wonderful bullet at about 2200 fps from a smaller cartridge.

And the really exciting thing is that a bullet with such a ballistic coefficient would retain at least half of its muzzle energy at a range of 1500 meters. Let's put it this way: A 750 grain Hornady A Max launched at 2200 fps would have a muzzle energy of about 8100 foot pounds. And this bullet would deliver over 4000 foot pounds of kinetic energy at 1500 meters. That's almost the same power that a .338 Lapua has at the muzzle!!!

I started looking through Cartridges of the World and J.D. Jones of SSK Industries has already developed a short .50 cal round that will work through a long magnum action. The round is called the .50 Peacekeeper. This round will send the 750 grain Hornady bullet at 2200 fps. The .50 Peacekeeper is based upon the .460 Weatherby Magnum.

The .50 Peacekeeper really excites me, but I think an even better round would be to load the .505 Gibbs with the 750 grain Hornady bullet. The .505 Gibbs does not have a belt and it would feed nicely from a magazine given the proper action. The lack of a belt would also lead to better headspacing. And .505 Gibbs brass is available from Huntingdon's.

The really exciting part is that one could build a very powerful single shot long range rifle around a standard magnum rifle action. You could use a standard loading press and dies are available from RCBS. The resulting rifle would be more portable than a .50 BMG and it would appear similar to any other long range target rifle. It would not trouble the "rabbit people"

A 20 pound .505-750 would be easier to shoot than a 30 pound .50 BMG rifle. In fact a 20 pound .505-750 would have a recoil energy of about 55 foot pounds. A .30-06 has a recoil energy of about 20 foot pounds.

So what do you guys think? Am I mad? I think so, but in a nice way.

I would also propose a name for the .505-750. I say we should call the round, the ".50 Hathcock" in honor of the late Wimbledon Cup champion.

Mad.
 

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Hmm...

I don't know about all that stuff, but if what you're saying is true, should be a heck of a cartridge. I think you sould test it out and tell us how it works. Who knows, maybe we can get a .50 Hathcock SC rifle :p ?
 

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just out of curiosoty mad, what kind of pressure levels are we looking at? Id love to chamber a barrel for my encore in this but im afraid we might crack the frame. Most encore frames shatter at 55,000 psi so.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'm not sure about chambering it in an Encore, but keep in mind that the old Mauser rifles chambered for the .505 Gibbs and .500 Jeffery would use 500 grain bullets at about 2300 to 2400 fps.

So I don't think I'm out of line with 750 grains at 2200 fps. And don't forget JD Jones has already done most of the work with his .50 Peacekeeper. The .50 Peacekeeper uses a necked up .460 Weatherby case.

I'm not totally sure of the pressures involved, but any modern bolt action magnum action would be totally safe. I like the idea of using a Czech Brno magnum action. Or maybe a Ruger Model 77 magnum action.

The whole thing is really exciting. I called SSK Industries one day last week and they can build rifles in .50 Peacekeeper. So with the right chamber reamer, they can also chamber a barrel for .50 Hathcock.

The best thing about the concept is that California shooters could build a stealth .50 that has about 70% of the performance of the real thing. And with none of the weight and other problems that you get with a .50 BMG.

Check out JD Jones' website:

http://www.sskindustries.com/50cal.htm

Mad
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I thought that it was just the .50BMG.

But I found a gunmaker who can build long range rifles based on the .505 Gibbs case.

Barney Lawton can make a .40 Chey Tac which is based on the .505 Gibbs. Or he can chamber a .50 bbl for the .505.

Barney Lawton
580 1/2 North Montana
Dillon, Montana
(406) 683-2388

I visited Barney's shop in October and it was amazing. He even had a Pratt Whitney barrel making machine. He is also a very fine man.

Mad
 

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did they ban all 50 caliber rounds and above? or just 50 caliber?
 

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spade said:
did they ban all 50 caliber rounds and above? or just 50 caliber?
The CA "ban" simply defined rifles which should .50 BMG ammunition as assault rifles, requiring registration and prohibiting the sale of. The ammunition is not illegal, nor are cartridges which may measure .50 in diameter, or rifles which may shoot cartridges that are .50 in diameter, so long as those cartridges are not the .50 BMG. Welcome to the futility of gun control!

Scatch Maroo
 

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new 50 cal cartridge

Coool! Great idea! Great name for the cartridge! You may want to consider the Lazzeroni Warbird case? It has a huge powder capacity, is beltless, and is made to very tight tolerances. A quality case like the Warbird may help the Hathcock achieve the accuracy it needs to become a true longrange cartride.
 

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What rifle in .50BMG (12.7X99mm) have you fired that has to much recoil? I have fired an EDM M-96 Windrunner that hide quit a bit of recoil but it wasnt anything i would complain about. Most .50BMG rifles have very good muzzle breaks which reduce felt recoil dramatically.... like the Armalite AR-50.... it kicks like a 20 guage shotgun. The Barrett M-82A1 and M-107 are semi automatic which takes up most of the recoil and have good muzzle breaks. Now... to much powder. If your shooting at 2,000 yards then you deffinity need all the powder you can get :D . It depends on the shooter and his/her personal likes / dislikes. Personally... i love the .50BMG caliber. A way to get around the .50BMG ban in california is go 12.7X109... the russian caliber. Only problem is that it is hard to get barrels and ammo for that caliber. You can get one of those semi auto DPSH belt feds. I have seen them around and they are legal in all 50 states as far as i know. The ban in Kommifornia only did away with the 12.7X99mm (.50BMG). There are a few other large calibers out there you can substitute for it... like the Russian 12.7X109 or the .408 CheyTac. The Kommifornia ban does not ban the sale or distribution of the ammunition. It only bans the sale of the rifles in that caliber. So you can get a .50BMG rifle before the ban starts in a few days and the ammo will be as easy to get as it was a year ago.
 

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I like the idea of this caliber, especially building it in a magnum sized action. The ability to build smaller rifles will be a very nice feature, and not having to use the specialized .50 BMG reloading gear should help keep prices reasonable for ammo.

MAD, To clarify, will the 750gr .50 bullet load right into the .505 gibbs? Or does the case need to be modified to accept a .50 bullet?

There is some reloading data out there that shows a 600gr at 2300+ fps in the 505 gibbs. I've seen CZ550 actions in 505 Gibbs. The new MT Rifleman action will handle it also.

MEL
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The correct bullet diameter of the .505 Gibbs is .510" which is the same as the 750 grain Hornady A-Max.

The 750 grain Hornady will fit properly.

But when you build the rifle, the throat has to be specially cut for the long bullet. The overall length of the loaded cartridge will make the round far longer than any regular .505 Gibbs round.

And the Czech action is exactly what I had in mind.

Maybe we could build one as a group project. Does anyone have a spare magnum action sitting around?

Mad
 

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Ah! I see. This seems like an easy conversion.

This sounds like a very interesting proposition, and I would be very interested in seeing the project through.

MEL
 

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Hi The correct bullet diameter of the .505 Gibbs is .505 not .510
the 50bmg 500jeffry 500NE and 50 Peacekeeper use .510" diameter bullets
 

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Discussion Starter #16
He's right. I was wrong. I confused the .505 Gibbs with the .505 Jeffrey.

But not to worry. Just neck it up by 5 thousanths of an inch. No big deal.

All you would have to do is to use a .505 Jeffrey sizing plug in your .505 Gibbs die. And you would also have to use a .505 Jeffrey seating stem in your bullet seating die. But all of that would be easy to work around.

Mad
 
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