[madgunsmith]

Glad tidings, folks:

Sierra has just introduced a new Match King bullet. It is a 175 grain 7mm.

It has a sectional density of 0.310 and a ballistics coefficient of .602!!

When I get an opportunity, I am going to load up a mess of these bullets for my 1908 Brazilian Mauser.

Mad

 

[mele]

Hum, I wonder if a load could be worked up with a 7mm08 with this bullet for long range application? I heard a few months back that Sierra was going to develop this bullet based off of the success of their 142 .264 bullet.

MEL

 

[madgunsmith]

The 7mm-08 is a fine cartridge for folks who have never heard of the 7mm Mauser.

All kidding aside, I'm sure that IMR-4350 would work with the 175 grain bullet. Let me check later tonight when I can consult my manuals.

A friend of mine loves the 7mm-08 and he always loads his ammo with IMR-4350. ( My buddy buys new Ruger M77s and then he casts aside the new barrel the same way that a dentist disgards a rotting tooth. Then my friend will install a Douglas Premium Air Guage bbl on his new Ruger. And he has several such Rugers in 7mm-08.)

The very first 7mm bullet ever weighed 173 grains. It was a long round-nosed bullet with a cupro-nickel jacket. I love the idea of a 175 grain bullet in 7mm.

By the way, if anyone has an old Mauser in 7mm Mauser a mild, accurate, soft shooting load for the 7mm Mauser is 43 grains of IMR-4350 with the 160 Sierra boat tailed bullet. This is a starting load and will give you the same velocity as the original 1892 military load. This load will shoot to the same point of aim as the sights on your 1895 Chilean Mauser. The muzzle velocity of this load in an 1895 Mauser is 2325 fps.



Mad.

 

[mele]

Mad,

You truly bring with you a fine assortment of reloading information!! Not to mention good legal council.

MEL

 

[madgunsmith]

Thank you, Mel.

The funny thing is that Charles Newton was a frustrated lawyer. He was a lawyer by trade and yet he still designed cartridges and rifles.

Now, I am not a gun designer or a cartridge designer, but I feel a strange kinship with ol' Charlie Newton. I mean he also loved the 6.5mm.

I really want to go to see where his factory once stood in Buffalo, New York. When I do go, I plan on taking pictures.

Mad

 

[muzzleblast]

As usual, Mad brings the info!

That Sierra round looks like it will fly true...Wonder what it would be like in 7mm STW?

 

[cody221]

or atleast the 7mm rem mag

 

[madgunsmith]

In a magnum caliber, that bullet would be a awesome performer.

It would be a serious 1000 yard performer.

mad

 

[mele]

Yes, it most certainly would. I think the ideal mating of this bullet would be in the 7mm WSM.

Now, what twist are we needing to stabilize this bullet, as its heavier than the standard offerings in 7mm and I wonder if most rifles could stabilize it.

MEL

 

[madgunsmith]

It is the length of the bullet that matters and not its weight.

The original 7mm Mauser round of 1892 used a 1 in 9" twist. I would imagine that 1 in 9 would stabilize the new Sierra.

I looked in the Lyman Manual last night and there was a load in 7mm-08 for the 175 grain Speer bullet. This load used 44.8 grains of IMR-4350 to produce about 2500 fps in the 7mm-08.

Take note that the Sierra bullet has a longer bearing surface and 44.8 grains of IMR-4350 would likely be too hot a load. The starting load was 39 point something grains of IMR-4350 and if one carefully worked up the load from there, one could develop a proper load for this bullet with IMR-4350.

Tomorrow when I am not so tired, I will post something about Elmer Keith and the balance point phenomenon and IMR powders

Actually 175 grains is not overly heavy for 7mm. I seem to recall that several years ago Barnes had a 7mm that weighed over 190 grains in 7mm. I'd have to check that one though.

Another thing: You might want to phone the Sierra help line and talk to one of their technicians. They would have the definite answers to all of these questions.

Mad.

 

[mele]

Hey, a gentleman sent me an email last night pointing out hornady's 7mm 162gr A-Max, so I took a look. If their BC numbers are to be believed, the BC is an amazing .625

Mad, do you know if the 7mm-08 can push a 162 at 2750 fps?

MEL

 

[madgunsmith]

I doubt it.

Not enough case capacity. But you would be able to get there using a 280 Remington, .284 Winchester or a 7x64mm.

Mad

 

[Jeffvn]

I'm going to have to disagree on Mele's case capacity question for the Standard 7-08.

According to Quickload, you can run the 162 gr. AMAX at roughly 2,750 using H4350, H4831, V V 160, and IMR 4350 and IMR 4895 - assuming you use a 26 inch barrel. If you go to a longer stick (28 inch), you can run them up to near 2,800 fps without exceeding 60,000 psi.

If you go with the 7-08AI, you get an extra 2 grains of powder capacity and jump up again on the velocity.

I would agree, however, that a straight 284 Winchester will get your 162 AMax to nearly 2,900 using the same powders and a 26" barrel.

JeffVN

 

[mele]

I doubt it.

Not enough case capacity. But you would be able to get there using a 280 Remington, .284 Winchester or a 7x64mm.

and

I would agree, however, that a straight 284 Winchester will get your 162 AMax to nearly 2,900 using the same powders and a 26" barrel.

Yes, that is true, but I want to stick to short action, and only 24" tube.... oh well, just a thought.

MEL

 

[madgunsmith]

Well, I didn't say it was impossible, but I should have said that I doubted it was possible with a normal length bbl.

I really don't like the idea of pushing a cartridge too far. I get scared when it comes to relatively small cased rounds. I am too much of a chicken to really load them up.

I do like the idea of the .284 Winchester for use with the new Sierra bullet. We'd have a short fat case and it would be wonderful.

And in all honesty I never liked the 7mm-08. I didn't like it when it came out in 1980 either. I always preferred the original 7mm. Paul Mauser's 7x57mm is the original 7mm and it will always be my favourite lucky no 7.

The 7x57mm is actually the father of the .30-06 but most people don't know that. During the Spanish-American War, the Spaniards defended San Juan Hill using 1893 Mausers in 7x57mm. So effective was the Mauser and the 7x57, that Teddy Roosevelt tried to get the US Army to adopt the Mauser.

The Army Ordnance Corps didn't like the idea of adopting a German rifle, so they copied the Mauser and that's where the Springfield rifle came from. The original .30-03 was merely a 7mm Mauser lengthened and necked up to .30 cal. The .30-06 was just the .30-03 with a slightly longer neck and a spitzer bullet. The Springfield Rifle was such a copy of the Mauser that Deutsche Waffen und Munitionfabrik successfully sued the US govt for patent infringement. And the US had to pay the Germans royalties.

Anyway, the entire .30-06 family ( every round that has a .473" casehead diameter) owes its existence to Paul Mauser's 7mm. And that is just one of the reasons why I love the 7x57mm

Mad

 

[mele]

Okay, I'm starting to bite on the .284 Win. Looking at the data on hodgdons web page, it looks like 2800 is doable with the 162gr hornady. If that .625 BC is to be believed, that would be one very nice long range cartridge, and in a short action with fat case. Could be a good combo.

Mad, and others: what has the consensus been on hornady's BC claims? Looking at their other bullets, they seem in the ball park with sierra and others. Perhaps this bullet really is that good?

MEL

 

[madgunsmith]

I don't know what ballistic model they used to calculate their ballistic coefficients. The problem with ballistic coefficients is that most manufacturers do not use the same set of ballistic tables.

I say contact Hornady and ask them.

Mad

 

[Jeffvn]

Mele

- if BC is your ticket to happiness then you need to look at either JLK or Berger (their numbers are reputed to bea bit inflated) - both kick Sierra's butt on BC. AS to teh AMAX, they are ok, I tried some 178s in .308 - my main gripe was that about 1/2 of the poly tips were either damaged (as in bent over or crushed) or missing altogether when I opened the box of 100. Take that tip off them and you slash the BC by a BIG margin.

My QuickLoad lists the following BCs by Mfgr, and the following MOA come-up from a 600 yard zero assuming the same muzzle velocity (everything below 180 grains 2,750 fps 180 grain 2,700 fps).

Hornady 162 gr. - .625 - 17.02
Berger 168 gr. - .630 - 16.93
JLK 168 gr. - .690 - 15.89

Sierra 175 gr. - .608 - 18.55

Berger 180 gr - .686 - 16.67
JLK 180 gr. - .738 - 15.86

There is no quesetion that if you can afford to shoot the JLKs - they are your ticket to long range happiness.

 

[mele]

Jeffvn:

Yeah, I've heard the same about the BC's of Berger bullets being inflated. But I do not know much about JLK bullets. I would prefer an easy to get bullet by a major manufacture. The reason I am looking is for the "flagship" loading for SC2's. What I am DREAMING of is a 6.5 of 128-135gr with a BC around .575. Lapua has a 123 at .547 and a 139 at .615, Norma has a 130 at .548, and sierra's 142 is .580. Right now my choice is the lapua 123.

MEL

 

[Jeffvn]

Mele-

Remember that the Lapua 123 is actually only a 108 grain bullet (the name is confusing - at least it was to me early on), so you can push it significantly faster than the 120-130 grain projectiles at far less pressure. Depending upon the cartridge used (.260 versus teh 6.5x284 vs the 6.5x55) there is a point where the Lapua 123s speed overtakes the higher BC of the heavier bullets (except in the wind).

JeffVN