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Discussion Starter #1
Howdy all. have been reading Mel's site for years, and its good to see a forum. Bloody good Site :D

My background is mostly varmiting with my SAKO75 Varmint Stainless Laminated .223Rem. I want to get into Tactical shooting. There really isn't such a thing here in Australia more just 3 positional with a tactical rifle. Shooting out to 800m + would be chalenging.

You guys in the United States are fortunate as the $cost$ of gear here varies from 50% - 100% more than you can buy it, and thats taking into consideration the exchange rate.

Ever since I read Mel's review on HS Precision's Pro Series 2000 HTR I've wanted one. On HSP's web, for the standard HTW rifle is listed for USD$2100 The Australian distributor has them on special for USD$3428. Which is a lot of money in anyones language.

Ive concidered cheaper models; Remington VS, LTR, PSS;Winchester Stealth I and II; Savage 110PF etc. They just don't stack up as a standard rifle and you need to pour more money into them to get them to shoot.

The HSP HTW is distributed in OZ by Lightforce who also distribute Nightforce NXS optics. They can do a package deal for me including rings and bases.

If there is someone out there who is wiser than I. Should I be heading down the path of big $$ or should I stick with a cheaper outfit?

Mulga :D
 

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Nice to see another international visitor. I am hardly one to talk. I started back into rifles with a moderate priced Remington 700-PSS .308, and ended up a year later building a high-end custom swap barrel chambered in .308 and 6.5x284 built on a Nesika action and McMillan A-4 stock. I love it!!

The least expensive (not cheapest) accurate rifles straight from the box seem to be the 700-PSS and the Savage 10FP (I'm sure that brings in other models from the same companies like the Remington VS, etc). From your location, looking European or at Sako may be a better bet than any of the standard "custom" sniper rifle makers in the US, especially given currrent exchange rates on the US Dollar.

In my own opinion, you get what you pay for. The most consistently accuarte and best built tactical rifles (sub 1/2 MOA) tend to be the higher dollar ones, like Robar, Tec-Ops, Patriot Arms, HS Precision etc. I have a secret source that told me that the SC-1 and SC-2 are both going to be good to great shooting rifles (good = 1/2 MOA; great = 1/3 or better MOA) and they will NOT break the bank. :wink:

All I can tell you is to try to find the most accurate rifle you can find to start with. It only gets more expensive from there. There is always a bigger, better, farther and flatter shooting rig out there with your name on it. :wink:
 

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Mulga,

I don't know about you, but for me, $3000+ USD is way too much money to be blowing on a rifle. The HSP is a pretty good rifle, and in America, is even good value. Not the case here. You'd be paying almost double what the rifle is worth. I see sooooo many people making the mistake of buying these huge dollar yank rifles (upwards of $12,000!!!), when my $5000AUD rifle (scope included), is three times as accurate. And it looks better!!

The best alternative for you wolud be to build a rifle from scratch :idea: . Forget about buying anything factory, it will just be a waste of money. For what you want to do, you need a rifle capable of at least .5 MOA. The HSP averages about .75 MOA.

This may sound difficult if you haven't done it before, but its really quite simple, and very cost effective. Start with a very good condition used Rem 700 DBL action (should be able to find one for between $500-1500). There's no advantage in buying one brand new, but make sure it is in good condition. Throw away or sell the stock and barrel.

Send it to one of the better gunsmiths in the country. Have him true and accurize the action for you (max. $500). Get him to give it a trigger job at the same time. Order yourself a Maddco barrel in your prefered calibre. Order a reamer from the states (approx. $80-100). Have your smith ream the barrel, and thread it to your action. Make sure you keep the reamer for future barrels.

Find yourself a tactical stock that you like (there's alot to choose from). Have it sent over and have your smith bed your action to it. Make sure you have the action glued in with epoxy resin. Pillar bedding just ain't good enough.

Get yourself a good tactical Leupold scope ($1500), and a set of Kelby rings ($100). Throw in a Harris Bipod ($150). Have the rifle painted in black or pretty camo colours ($300).

Before you know it, you've got a tack driving longrange tactical rifle that will out shoot any HSP rifle. If you reload your own ammo, you should be able to average .3-.4 MOA with the right calibre :D .

All that for roughly $4000AUD with scope :shock: !!!

Save yourself the heart ache, and the cash. Build exactly what you want and have it out shoot the rest.

Good shootin

Tazz :wink:
 

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Mulga,

I don't know about you, but for me, $3000+ USD is way too much money to be blowing on a rifle. The HSP is a pretty good rifle, and in America, is even good value. Not the case here. You'd be paying almost double what the rifle is worth. I see sooooo many people making the mistake of buying these huge dollar yank rifles (upwards of $12,000!!!), when my $5000AUD rifle (scope included), is three times as accurate. And it looks better!!

The best alternative for you wolud be to build a rifle from scratch :idea: . Forget about buying anything factory, it will just be a waste of money. For what you want to do, you need a rifle capable of at least .5 MOA. The HSP averages about .75 MOA.

This may sound difficult if you haven't done it before, but its really quite simple, and very cost effective. Start with a very good condition used Rem 700 DBL action (should be able to find one for between $500-1500). There's no advantage in buying one brand new, but make sure it is in good condition. Throw away or sell the stock and barrel.

Send it to one of the better gunsmiths in the country. Have him true and accurize the action for you (max. $500). Get him to give it a trigger job at the same time. Order yourself a Maddco barrel in your prefered calibre. Order a reamer from the states (approx. $80-100). Have your smith ream the barrel, and thread it to your action. Make sure you keep the reamer for future barrels.

Find yourself a tactical stock that you like (there's alot to choose from). Have it sent over and have your smith bed your action to it. Make sure you have the action glued in with epoxy resin. Pillar bedding just ain't good enough.

Get yourself a good tactical Leupold scope ($1500), and a set of Kelby rings ($100). Throw in a Harris Bipod ($150). Have the rifle painted in black or pretty camo colours ($300).

Before you know it, you've got a tack driving longrange tactical rifle that will out shoot any HSP rifle. If you reload your own ammo, you should be able to average .3-.4 MOA with the right calibre :D .

All that for roughly $4000AUD with scope :shock: !!!

Save yourself the heart ache, and the cash. Build exactly what you want and have it out shoot the rest.

Good shootin

Tazz :wink:
 

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I would probably agree. Building a rifle isn't that difficult and is rather fun. It sounds like a better cost alternative for you. As also was mentioned, you may want to look at some European rifles. Steyr SSG PI & PII, AI rifles, SIG, & Sako are all worth looking at and might be a better value.

MEL
 

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Mel:

Unfortunately, the AI rifles are quite costly. The one I'd think would be within a civilians reach is the AI AE, except that they only evaluate it as capable of accurate shooting out to 600m at most(Of course, that's probably tweakable since AI tend to try and err on the safe side, but still worth to keep in mind). Drawbacks include only one caliber and one barrel length offered, 7.62x51 and 61cm(24") respectively. Should be around half the price of an AWP. I still expect it to be highly accurate, however.

The drawback with the SAKO rifles(except for the TRG series) is that they are quite light for their caliber(Only one of their hunting rifles goes above the 4kg line), which will give you a nasty recoil. Or, how about their Synthetic Stainless hunting rifle chambered for .300WM, 7mm Rem Mag, .338WM or .375 H&H, with a bare weight of 3.6kg? The TRG series is also costly(But it's worth it!)
 

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AI AW

I've always had an affinity towards the AI AW Super Magnum. I just like the way it looks. Its way to high end for me, however, but I would love to see someone be able to enjoy one of these quality rifles. In a .308 it should be effective out to at least 1200 yards, if you can get it chambered in anything else I like the .338 Lapua (probably not spelled correctly).

It's just the suggestion of a kid, so I would listen to the real experts.
 

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ironman, a .308 isn't effective out to 1200 yards. The USMC preaches out to 1000 yards for their M40A3 and if those guys can't shoot effectively farther than that I don't know who can. And it depends on what you mean by effective. If your going to shoot out past 1200 yards look into a .300 Win. Mag. or like ironman said a .338 Lapua, put those are expensive.
 

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Maybe the Marine Corps snipers can't be effective out beyond 822.6m(900 yards) with their 7.62x51 rifles and their ammo, but us Swedish snipers practice to be effective at ranges up to a maximum of 1200 meters, with the help of our subcaliber rounds. See the posts I made about it in the Cartridges & Calibers forum, the .408 Chey-Tac thread.

Ironman:

The AW Super Magnum isn't chambered for 7.62x51, and it never was, at least according to Accuracy International themselves. You're thinking of the AW, most likely. The AWM(The current short designation) is available in 7mm Rem Mag, .300WM and .338 Lapua Magnum.
 

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Yeah, I got mixed up with meters and yards. Can't we all get one system to use? I edited it for the correct range for the USMC. Aren't those subcaliber rounds effected by wind at those extended ranges? That bullet drop and compensation for wind must be ALOT. But of course this is just coming from a kid that hunts in ranges less than 100 yards.
 

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Actually, it's not. It was chosen because it is more accurate at long ranges than even match-grade ammo.

First, the subcaliber round achieves a _very_ high velocity(1260m/s). Second, the amount of weight to projectile diameter ratio is very high, which gives it a low retardation, i.e it retains its velocity very well. The advantages are that you get a lot flatter trajectory, a much shorter time-to-target. The high velocity and high weight compared to the projectile diameter also contributes to making it less susceptible to winddrift than even match-grade ammo.
 

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While there are a lot of interesting side-topics going on in here, lets try to help this fellow out!

I'm not aware of Austrailian gun laws personally, I wouldn't think there would be much to shoot (albiet targets and dingos).

Call a dealer in the U.S. and talk to him about it, you never know the arangments you can work out.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks subThermal

We have lots of hogs and other feral animals which we can shoot at all year round. Such as rabits, foxes, cats,wild dogs(and dingoes) donkey, camel, scrub bulls, water buffalo and we do have 7 species of wild deer . Also kangaroos when they are damaging crops and are in plague numbers.

I am looking into importing a firearm. However it seems it will be a drawn out process with lots of paperwork and $$. Export permits from the US take about 3 months! :( . I will Email HS_precision and ask them what the procedure would be to export a HTR. Also thats if they would undermine thier australian REP on price?

I will have to wait and see

Mulga
 

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You can always have hope brother! If you have family over here in the states maybe one of them could help you out. Just another suggestion.

I'm in the process of putting a new rifle together myself, and am faced with very tough questions.
 

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Again, I would seriously check out a Steyr SSG PI or PII and the Sako TRG-22/42 rifles. Also, I'm not sure on the pricing of the remington rifles over there (if they are super high also) but the 40X custom rifles (if available) is also very nice.

MEL
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Im now thinking, mabie building a rifle from scratch is the go. Maddco barrels are based here in town and they will build a rifle for me.

I think I will start with:

~a McMillan A5 with adjustable cheek piece and adjustable LOP

~A Rem 700 SA - scope mount holes to 8-40
- Action trued
- Lugs lapped
- Trigger tuned to 33/4lbs
- Glass beded? Suggestions?

~Badger Steel Floorplate & M4 triggerguard

~Badger recoil lug

~Badger Tactical Bolt Knob

~ Badger or Nightforce Bases and rings

~Maddco Fluted stainless Barrel 24" (Finished) Heavy profile

~Nightforce NXS 2.5-15X50 Mildot

~something like IBA's manOwar epoxy finish would be nice (nothing like it here in OZ may have to do something like it myself, will have to find out how)

Im not sure how much this lot will cost and there are no guarintees that it will shoot :? What do you guys think? Suggestions Please :idea:

Mulga
 

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If you have a competent gunsmith assemble that list it should shoot nicely.

the only potential problem is the delay in getting the McMillan Stock. Be ready for a delay of at least 16 - 20 weeks for a McMillian stock (unless your smith has one in stock already), longer for the A-5, unless you are willing to take a different one (I had the choice took an A-2 instead of the A-4 and they shipped to my smith at least 2-3 weeks earlier).
 

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What are you thinking about chambering it for Mulga? Probably .308 I guess?
 
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