Sniper & Sharpshooter Forums banner

1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
In previous posts I've solicited input into the selection of a rifle and optics for precision/tactical shooting to 600 yds. In large part due to advice from forum members, I now have a 308 Rem 700 SPS AAC_SD (unable to find a 5R), Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1 NXS scope and Jewell trigger awaiting assembly (no hurry - there seems to be no 308 ammo or components available!).

The original stock clearly needs to be replaced to achieve the full potential of the rest of the components, and am considering B&C, HS, Manners, McMillan. The recent thread on stock comparison has been quite helpful but I have some specific (and some very basic) questions regarding the selection of a stock.

Are any or all or none of the above brands simple drop-in or do they require fitting, bedding, etc? If a 5R becomes available, will I be able to simply switch out the barreled action of the SPS for the 5R?

Does an aluminum bedding block eliminate the need for glass bedding?

For my specific action/barrel is there one brand or model that is more suitable than others?

Is the thumbhole design individual preference or is there an inherent advantage?

Thanks for the past advice and in advance for more on this topic---

Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
The ones with bedding blocks will be drop in fit for the most part. You might have to do a little Dremel work for the Jewell. The glass bedded rifles are more accurate, but you should not notice a difference with a factory barreled action. Manners also has the mini chassis with or without dbm which is an aluminum bedded stock. They are pricey, but really great stocks.

Stock shape is matter of preference. My AICS is a thumb hole and I really like it, but I liked the manners t4 better than their t5 thumb hole.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I looked at several descriptions/videos for bedding info - it looks straightforward and within the capability of someone with reasonable manual and problem solving skills. Are there any hidden pitfalls? Is there any preferred brand of material for bedding (I'm sending in a Midway order today so I may as well get the bedding stuff now)?

Good point re 5R, Adam. I've been hesitant about doing too much to the SPS because of the possibility that I would be replacing it but action tuning/blueprint and barrel change will allow me to just upgrade the SPS to get the advantages of the 5R.

Unfortunately I don't have the option of trying out stocks. I've handled some McMillans at the SHOT Show but that's the sum total of my experience. I haven't heard of Manners until they were mentioned in another thread - they're attractive because they are similar to the McMillan and available in some configurations without the 5 month wait. I generally liked the A3 McMillan - any thoughts on what would be the closest Manners to this model?

Another thought - if I go for a DBM modification, will this complicate my DIY stock fitting?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re the comments on DBM - so the stock I would get from Manners etc, would then have to be inletted? I assume this would be by someone that knew what he was doing, i.e., not me.;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Since I'm not exactly certain what a mill is or where I would find one, that excludes me!! So I'll leave that to the stock maker.

Aside from the necessary stock inletting, is the DBM modification as simple as changing out the bottom metal? Does this change adversely affect the rigidity of the action?

CDI and Seekins both use the AI mags - any real differences in the two?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
The Surgeon looks impressive - as is the price, over twice as much as the M5 Stealth and other competitors. Is there that much difference in quality?

I confused about the M5 Stealth - Stocky info suggests it is their proprietary unit but the PTG looks exactly alike - are they the same or different manufacturers of a mil spec generic unit?

There also seems to be a basic difference in designs - flush mount (Badger) and and "funnel" as in Stocky/PTG and Surgeon. Personal preference or any advantage of one over the other?

I also noted on the Manners order page that you can specify any one of several different bottom metals so that avoids my having to learn any new tricks involving milling machines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Going back to the answer to one of my original questions, a Manners (which I'm leaning toward) should be glass bedded before shooting. My plan was to get a stock, glass bed the action, start shooting, then determine how well the action and barrel (700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD) performed before deciding whether to have any truing/blueprinting/barrel upgrade done. If I decide to have that type of work done, will I be able to simply drop the new barrel and tuned action back into the same bedding?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
374 Posts
Not really. If you do any kind of receiver facing, it will change the position of the recoil lug. Most people would upgrade the recoil lug anyway at this point, since it is already apart. Not a big deal to grind out the bedding material in the recoil lug area and re-do the bedding anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
374 Posts
Thicker, stronger, deeper into the stock, tapered ones are also available which makes the action easier to remove from the stock. It seems that anyone who makes gun parts makes an "improved" recoil lug for the Rem 700. Any material removed from the front of the receiver during truing will move the lug aft, necessitating rebedding the lug area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
So truing a receiver during a tune-up should include replacement of the lug - very good. And then of necessity, the portion of the original bedding around that area will have to be removed and the new lug re-bedded - makes sense. That doesn't sound like a problem for me to do so I'll continue with plan A. Thanks to both of you for that info.

BTW, Adam - I've looked more closely at the Surgeon BDM modification. You're right - the price really isn't that much out of line with the other higher end units and there are several aspects of it's design that look (at least on paper) very attractive so it's become my choice. I was curious though - it comes with it's own bedding pillars. Manners offers installed pillars on their stocks, so the question arises - is a pillar a pillar - no matter which one is used - or is it preferable to use the ones that come with the Surgeon unit? If so, I guess I could specify that Manners either install them or precision drill the holes so that I could insert them when I do the bedding?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
I had planned to deal directly with Manners - I talked to them (Matt?) in general terms a few days ago and got the impression that they would be willing to "hold my hand" through this process. So if I understand correctly, the "inlet" from Manners for a Surgeon BDM would include drilling holes for the Surgeon pillars which I can then insert into the holes during the bedding process? I think you also answered another question I was formulating - do the pillars free float in the bedded action or are they secured in place with bedding material?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
One option that I completely ignored was that of an AICS stock. Some obvious advantages - immediately available, no bedding (DIY or pro) required and no additional purchase of a DBM unit. So two new questions:

1) How does the AICS compare to traditional fiberglass stocks in general and specifically in terms of ergonomics, perceived recoil, adaptability to accessories and most important, ultimate accuracy of the rifle/stock unit?

2) Are there any disadvantages other than the non-traditional appearance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
I love the AICS stock-- but some hate how it feels. It is heavy, so it really helps control the recoil. If you want a good quality stock that is fully adjustable and has DBM, then the AICS 1.5 is about your cheapest quality option. You can get that stock ready to go with a 5 round mag for less than $900. As far as accuracy, many custom builders use them without bedding them.

Are Manners and McMillan more accurate? A properly bedded (not mini-chassis) manners or McMillian will have a slight edge over the AICS as far as accuracy. You can also choose the shape of the stock you want as well as the bottom metal-- but they are pricey. I paid right at $1000 for my manners including most available options and then it was another $325 for the surgeon bottom metal. If you went with a non-adjustable no-frills manners you could get one for about $600 but with bottom metal it would still be more than the AICS.

The AICS is also available in the AX format or with pistol-grip victor skins to go on to it. both add to the price, but they are good options.

BTW-- the non-traditional appearance is not a disadvantage. lol. guess it depends what you are looking for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
I had planned to deal directly with Manners - I talked to them (Matt?) in general terms a few days ago and got the impression that they would be willing to "hold my hand" through this process. So if I understand correctly, the "inlet" from Manners for a Surgeon BDM would include drilling holes for the Surgeon pillars which I can then insert into the holes during the bedding process? I think you also answered another question I was formulating - do the pillars free float in the bedded action or are they secured in place with bedding material?
The pillars need to be bedded in with epoxy. You can buy the stock without pillars, with pillars on the side, or with pillars already bedded into the stock. I ordered mine on the side to allow the smith to install them the way he wanted. The holes in the stock will fit the pillars that come with the stock, but are too small for the pillars that come with the surgeon DBM. I am not sure which pillars my smith will use. I sent both sets and am going to let him choose. If you are going to attempt to bed the stock yourself, I would use the surgeon pillars as they are precisely set for that DBM. You will need to drill the holes bigger and bed the pillars in the stock precisely in the right place. I am pretty handy with tools and building, but this is not something I wanted to try to do myself. Stocks are too expensive to start messing them up. I might would try if I had a cheaper stock. If you intend to have a smith bed the stock, then I would find out what he wants before you order the stock.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
For me the main advantage of going with an AICS was avoiding the wait for a custom made Manners. However, the AICS doesn't seem to be as "readily available" as I expected. All the major sources I've checked are backordered so the options are to wait an unknown period of time them to become available or go with a known 16 week wait for the Manners, which was my first choice. Hum-m-m-m, (picture deep thought) - Manners it is!

The more I learn about bedding the more complex it seems to become rather than the reverse! The videos and articles re pillar bedding seem straightforward even to using headless bolts or the actual bottom metal screws to properly locate the pillars. But if that's more difficult than it looks, I may have to consider having a pro do it. I had also thought about using my new original STS Tactical AAC Hogue stock as a trial - floating the barrel and bedding the action to give me a little experience - and confidence - prior to attempting it on my
custom stock. The only drawback I can see would be that I wouldn't be able to sell it later, and the plus side is that I might have a more accurate rifle to shoot while awaiting the Manners.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Adam, many thanks - that has to be the most clear and concise procedure for bedding that I've seen in my hours of searching forums, internet, you tube, etc. One question though - you say to leave the pillars alone and to remove material around them. Do you mean for their full length so they are sitting in an oversized hole prior to bedding (much like the custom stock will be) or just for 1/4" or so allowing them to retain their position but become incorporated partially into the epoxy?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
561 Posts
OK, Adam you have to make this post a sticky! I have not been much of a DIY person but you take so much confusion out of your explanations,.

Sully
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top