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Rather than tell them they were lost because they didn't have a zero stop, tell them they should have been better prepared as there are other "solutions" to help prevent "getting lost". They may or may not work for you. A zero stop is a nice feature, but its not the only way to skin a cat.

You are always going to have some sort of limitation with your equipment, the trick is to find what they are and then learn how to best utilize what you have. I can't believe Carlos Hathcock was able to do anything with out a zero stop, a scope that would double as a hammer, a rifle that wouldn't shoot .25 moa groups "all day long if he did his part", a laser range finder, a Kestral, a GPS or a host of other modern innovations we now take for granted and "must haves". Yet, if it were Carlos in his prime with his old antiquated equipment vs most of us with our modern innovations in ours, my money would still be on Carlos as I believe its the indian not the bow. That doesn't mean that Carlos wouldn't have liked the innovations or been effective with them. He and others like him pushed for the very innovations we are discussing. Every archer appreciates and desires a well made bow, but learns to shoot the bow he has and employs it with in its performance envelope. Its that skill that makes him effective. You can tell the next guy you see that gets lost on his turrets, I said that;) Know you equipment!

Using my MK4 M3, I can't get too lost as it only has one revolution available to me. I usually am shooting a .308 which isn't the flattest shooter, but on the 60 moa on that one revolution of the MK M3 scope is more than enough to make use of the effective range. Using a MK4 with M1 which has 15 moa per revolution or M5 with 5 mils per revolution, it takes me just over 2 revolutions to get out to 1,000 yards with the same 308. If you were using something flatter shooting you would obviously need less. Each revolution of the turret is indicated by a white line. You can simply count how many white lines you have from the top when your rifle is zeroed or you can take a black sharpie and paint over the lines that you are not using, so that you can quickly find your base revolution. This only works if you can see, so if you are going to be shooting in the dark, then a little luminal paint on those hash marks would help along with a dot above your zero. You could even improvise a zero stop if you really wanted one as mentioned before by putting thin washers under your turret that only allow you to go down to your base revolution. The sharpie comes off if for some reason your zero changes more than one rotation, but I would submit that is a large change.

You can always have custom turrets made for your scope, you could color code the reference lines with a different colored sharpie. If I were doing a lot of dialing in the dark, I would want a zero stop. If I had daylight then it would be a nice feature, but not a make or break feature, but then that is based on my experience and my shooting needs, obviously, not everyone has the same needs. I haven't bothered to shim my M1 or M5 turrets, but I have inquired Leupold about it. I may get around to doing it one day, but so I have done ok without it.

It sounds like I am arguing against a "zero stop" and I really am not, its just not a make or break feature for me and my needs. My needs are not yours, so it very well may be a make or break feature for you. Here are a few pictures, to help illustrate what I have said earlier.

I pulled this picture off the internet to make the slide. I would black out the lines I don't use to indicate the bottom, so that when I see the first white line, I know I am on my base rotation. You could certainly color code the next line or two. Three rotations will give me 45 moa, which is enough for me.







This is an example of my "zero stop" I have it adjusted below my actual zero, so that I can adjust for enviromental factors. My zero on this scope is "1". I always return it to "1" when I put the rifle away. If I think I am going to have "rapid engagement of multiple targets at varying ranges", I set the dial to "3" and then use the hold overs on my scope cap on the target below. As I mentioned there is only one rotation on this turret so its a bit hard to get lost.


These are a few of the fixes that work for me in my "shooting game", they may not work for you in yours. A zero stop may be that one item that makes or breaks your day, but it isn't something that is going to make or break mine, but then I still don't own a Kestral, so what do I know. Sometimes, you just have to figure out a way to make do, with what you have.
 

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Sorry, I'm of a completely different mindset.

I don't pride myself on overcoming as many equipment limitations as I can. I pride myself on eliminating as many equipment limitations as I can, thus while shooting, overcoming as little as possible.

When better options exist, I'll utilize them. So while deficiencies can be overcome with all manner of "work-arounds," I'll systematically eliminate them until I'm left with the best possible scenario. If I can buy a piece of gear with all the options I want, for half the money of a different piece of gear lacking the options I want... I'll do that.
 

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To the OP, Mele, the originator of Sniper Central, has done a series of reviews on various scopes you be interested to read through, if you have not already.
http://www.snipercentral.com/scopereviews.htm
Mele is pretty fair in his reviews. I included three links below, specifically that you may like.
http://www.snipercentral.com/leupoldmk4.phtml
http://www.snipercentral.com/nxs5522.phtml
http://www.snipercentral.com/viperpst.phtml
Determine what you want in features and what you are willing to pay for and then make your decision based on that. NightForce and Leupold have been around longer and are what I am more familiar with. I don’t think you could go wrong with either. Vortex has some great features for the dollar, but my experience with them is limited. In my personal opinion, it’s hard to beat the cost vs performance on the Leupold MK4 ERT M5 series. It is what I put on top of my last custom rifle. I have been very happy with the scope. I will put a MK4 M3A on my next custom rifle both for nostalgia and for training value. There are certainly other worthy scopes out there. It’s your money, only you can decide what is going to give you the best opportunity cost for your dollar.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I don't have zero stops on my burris 6-24 and my next scope will have that feature. I have been lost in my turrets and Yeah that does suck!
 

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If you have to live with/without certain things in the bush then train on the range under as similar conditions as possible. Most of us don't have that limitation placed on us but I recon Shane is one of those who does. It is all a matter of perspective but unless you have a reason, be it budget or whatever, I would choose the Nightforce every day of the week over a MK4 and I have chucked a bit of lead with both breeds.
At the end of the day though the only thing that is indispensable, in the rifle-shooter combination, is the required skill set.
 

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Originally Posted by davedLest there be some confusion, according to Leupold website, only active duty military are qualified for the discount program; retired military need not apply---



That's what it says BUT I contacted them and they said I did qualify as Retired.
You may have been lucky or it's a then and now scenario, but this is the response I received to a request to purchase a Mark 4 as ret mil under the Mil/Leo Program:

Unfortunately, the program is restricted to active duty or law enforcement only. Thank you for your service and your interest.

Sincerely,

Tia Spiering
Tactical Sales REP
[email protected]
1-800-LEUPOLD Option 4
OR 503-526-5189
 

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You may have been lucky or it's a then and now scenario, but this is the response I received to a request to purchase a Mark 4 as ret mil under the Mil/Leo Program:
It's probably changed. Too bad.
 

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I know I'm a little late to the party but Vortex does offer a superb Military Discount but you must email them via your .mil email account to verify your affiliation. Hope this helps!
 

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Different people have different definitions of quality. The old traditional definition of quality states quality is conformance to specifications. This definition was expanded by Joseph M. Juran. Juran observed that "quality is fitness for use." The ASQC defined quality as" the totality of features and characteristics of a product or service that bear on its ability to satisfy given needs." This is the one most of ya'll subscribe to.

Dr. Genichi Taguchi states his definition of quality this way. His definition stressed the losses associated with a product. Taguchi stated that "quality is the loss a product causes to society after being shipped, other than losses caused by its intrinsic functions." Taguchi asserted that losses in his definition "should be restricted to two categories: (1) loss caused by variability of function, and (2) loss caused by harmful side effects." Taguchi is saying that a product or service has good quality if it "performs its intended functions without variability, and causes little loss through harmful side effects, including the cost of using it."

To me (and it appears others) a product or service has good quality if it "performs its intended functions without variability. So whether a scope has 15 different features or three. Whether it cost $1000 or $5000 as long as it does what it is suppose to do, that is all that matters to most people. This issue (which is plain as day) is different people want their scopes to do different things. some people want their scopes to illuminate, some people want their scopes to have a zero stop, others can do what they want to do without their scopes having these things. This is why I'm always telling people I'm not wrong for wanting the scope I wanted. You're not wrong for wanting the scope that you want.
 

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I love it when people bring up Carlos Hathcock and the equipment he used in Vietnam. You don't think for one second that he would have preferred to use better equipment if it was available.
 

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If you want a side by side comparison for nightforce and the mark 4 just go to your local cabelas. You will find out just as I did how un-close the competition is when you compare the two. Turn the turrets on both scopes and find your zero. One will be clearly identified. The other will have you scratching your head. Then try to figure out which click you are on. One will be easy to recognize while the other will begin to create a bald spot over your right ear. Then try to create a low light situation and try to read the reticle. One will show you the light the other will cause internal bleeding.
 

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Has nothing to do with everyone getting a trophy, but rather everyone getting the scope THEY want. Why should someone buy the scope I want, or the scope I think is best? Why should someone buy the scope you want, or the scope you think is best. I think people should buy the scope THEY want and the scope they think is best for THEIR needs. I realize people come onto these forums asking for opinions just like whats going on in this thread. But at the end of the day they are just opinions......everybody has one. All we can do is tell them what scopes we have used and what we think about them, but the final choice is theirs to make. And whatever choice that is, is right. It may not have been the scope I suggested or the scope you suggested, but they made a choice based off of their individual needs. No-one on this board or any other knows what is best for someone else.

Is the glass half full, or half empty? There may be a researcher that has spent countless years looking at countless glasses of half filled water and he has after all those years determined that the glass id half full. I can walk up and in less than one minute determine that the glass is half empty. I don't have near the years experience he has but I still made the determination. Who is right and who is wrong?.......we are both right. So whether the OP chooses the Nightforce or the Luepold he is right either way he goes.
 

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It's not about opinions but experience and product history. You can say what you want to feel better about your purchase but not every scope is a good purchase. There are winners and loser in comparison and the winner in this comparison would be the Nightforce. I have owned multiples of both.
 

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I don't say anything to make me feel better about nothing. There are those that will say Nightforce is the way to go, there are those that will say Luepold is the way to go. I say either way he goes is the correct way for HIM. These forums are a great source of info. But people need to understand the opinions they are getting from people are just that, opinions. If I had listened to all the experienced people on these forums I would have missed out on the pure optical joy of looking thru an IOR. Now I own two and couldn't be happier. I'm shooting better today than I ever have. In the last couple of years I have been paying attention to the "scopes" forums here and on other forums and I have seen people posting issues with all manner of scopes from $500 scopes to $5000 scopes and I can't recall one post of someone complaining about an IOR. But if you come on one of these forums and post "hey I'm thinking about buying an IOR, what do ya'll think" you will get crucified. But get on this forum or the hide and start searching for post of people having issues with them. You won't find any. But do a search on all the other elite brands and see what you find. In Cal's great scope shootout 2014, there was only one scope that scored perfect in the mechanical portion of the test.....an IOR. In the end people should keep coming to the forums asking advise and for opinions. There is a world of knowledge here, but what ever scope they choose in the end is their choice. He may choose the nightforce, he may choose the Luepold, he may choose neither and go with a Vortex...who knows. But in the end it's his money and his choice and he will make the right decision.
 

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Yeah why would you want to listen to people with actual experience? Every way is not always the correct way. Some people just don't get it and obviously never will.
 

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You are correct, every way is not the correct way, that includes your way, my way, and everyone Else's way. People just have to make there own way. My friend Dickey still to this day shows up at Bow Shooting competitions with a $250 Bear Bow and puts a smokin' on all the other guys there with $1000+ comp. bows made by Hoyt, Mathews, and others. If he were to go on a Bow shooting forum and post "Hey I'm thinking about getting into bow shooting comps. what bow should I consider?" How many people do you think would advise him to go get a cheap Bear bow? I think it was Arkansas 89 that said "its not the bow, it's the Indian". I'm sure the OP will make the best choice for him.
 
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