[LongRange]

Hey guys,

I was just wonder if someone could help me with a question:

"What was the problem with the 168 grain Boat Tailed Hollow Point Match round that snipers used"

I've looked for a while, but I can't find anything online, so my logical though was to ask snipers.

Any help is appreciated,

 

[murray]

are you talking about the Geneva convention that prohibits the use of hollow points?

 

[LongRange]

Well, I was under the impression that the Geneva Convention forbids soft tip rounds, not hollowpoints. But as that is, now that I look at it, a generally accepted "truth", I suppose that answer would have to do.

Check this site out:

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

Shows what I'm talking about

 

[muzzleblast]

There's a couple threads so far about whats barred from use and what ain't...BTHP match ain't. Cool article though, thanks for postin. I'm not a sniper but I've shot Sierra match ammo, and it isn't made to expand.

 

[Max338]

M118, and M118 LR uses SMK 168 BTHP. the round dosnt expand, the hollow tip (not really hollow) is there for accuracy enhancement. its perfectly legal.

 

[morpheus]

M118, and M118 LR uses SMK 168 BTHP.

Actually I thought someone said the M118LR uses the 175 grain bullet.

Anyway, I believe there have been two Geneva things. One of them forbids the use of soft points and hollowpoints. But the one America uses says that we cannot use a bullet that is specifically designed to induce more harm. The hollow point of the bullets they use now is a bi-product of manufacturing. So the military gave the OK to use the BTHP bullet.

 

[Yimmy]

re

I have been told that America has not signed the Geneva or Hauge conventions, but I do not believe it to be true.

 

[Jeffvn]

If memory serves, the M118 used 173 grain bullets and the M118LR uses 175 smks.

The SMK HPBT is not designed for expansion upon impact, meaning the hollow point is merely a bi-product of the production process (where they do not fill the copper shell copeltely up with the metal during production so there is a gap / hollow left in teh copper jacket when its tipped att eh end of the production process) - therefore it "arguably" does not violate any treaties.

JeffVN

 

[Jeffvn]

If memory serves, the M118 used 173 grain bullets and the M118LR uses 175 smks.

The SMK HPBT is not designed for expansion upon impact, meaning the hollow point is merely a bi-product of the production process (where they do not fill the copper shell completely up with the metal during production so there is a gap / hollow left in teh copper jacket when its tipped at the end of the production process) - therefore it "arguably" does not violate any treaties.

JeffVN

 

[Jeff_850]

JeffVN is absolutely right
M118 - 173 gr FMJ-BT
M118LR - 175 gr BTHP

the SMK is legal by the Geneva convention because it doesnt expand

 

[muzzleblast]

Both of the Jeffs are right on. Recovered 190 grain SMK BTHP I have didn't expand any more than FMJ really, depends what medium they were fired though...I guess if its a tough medium you could say they expanded just as much as FMJ too, but doesn't look like they do anything worse.

 

[AKvsAR]

You are right about it being forbidden to use such rounds. However the Geneva Convetntions 1-4

http://www.civicwebs.com/cwvlib/constit ... tion_1.htm

http://www.civicwebs.com/cwvlib/constit ... tion_2.htm

http://www.civicwebs.com/cwvlib/constit ... tion_4.htm

DO NOT contain any content outlawing such projectiles. What you mean is that the Hauge convention of 1907
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm
Article 23 Section II Chapter 1 states that- In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden - To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.

I hope that that clears eveything up, but I cannot answer truthfully wether or not the U.S. has signed the treaties

However I believe that a Federal Judge ruled that "The M118LR bullet's hollow tip was not sufficient to cause unneccesary suffering but to improve the long range accuracy and stabilization."

 

[SHOTGUNMIKES]

168

For all those people wondering about the 168. hollow boat tail match the hollow doesn't open up therefore its does not conflict with the Geneva Convetntions the 168. was replaced with a 178. because the 178 as a better BC and carrys more energy down range


ZMJW

 

[mele]

175, not 178. Just a small correction.

MEL

 

[SHOTGUNMIKES]

168

yes you are Correct it is 175 altho 178 was a typo


ZMJW