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Discussion Starter #1
after reading about tac ops .25 moa guaranteed rifles it often makes me wonder. sure punching virtually single hole in paper at 100 yards is well and good, but what about real field accuracy. does it really matter if you can shoot good off a bag, if you cant hit the broad side of a barn out hunting or in a tactical situation? the point im trying to get to is i see alot of guys only shooting off the bag, and never out and about. i think that should be empasized alot more.
this brings to mind what is generally considered a good off hand group? 2-3"?
what is average accuracy for an issue m24 or m40a1/3 with the newer match ammo? are these things shooting down to .24" groups? (you get the idea.)
 

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The idea is to take out the variable of rifle accuracy so that you can concentrate on your accuracy. If you know your rifle will shoot .5 MOA, then you know what your limits are in terms of tools. No, for a sniper, most of your shooting should not be from a bench at known distances. The single most critical shooting a sniper will practice will be his unknown distance shooting while prone or in other supported positions. But, I also want to take out any possibility that the rifle will let me down. For instance, I know my .5 MOA rifle will shoot (in theory) a 2.5" group at 500 yards, well, If I miss the whole target, I know it wasn't because of the rifle.

Now, if you are engaging a target at 1000 yards, a 1 MOA rifle will group 10 inches (no weather effects) and a .25 will shot a 2.5", that extra accuracy makes up for more of the miscalculations I will make. Just helps you have that much better of a chance of hitting.

I see no fault in striving to get the most accurate rifle possible, but for the field work, it all comes down to the guy behind the rifle.

MEL
 

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i totally agree with mel, there was a time when i was looking into hunting in canada for a while. Black bear mostly, but the guide i was talking too told me one thing above all else.

"If you get here and you cant make a 70 yrd offhand shot if the oppurtunity comes up, I'm going to be pissed."

I guess more often than not, these guys show up with 5,000 dollar rifles and wont take the simplest of shots due to there not being a support for them to lay on. The ability to find a support in your environment, as in a fallen tree, stump, limb, rock, window sill for you urban guys hunting two legged creatures.... is probably the most important part of a field riflemans ability.
 

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!

Im with Mel.

If your a Sharpshooter on a HRT team and you have a man with a gun to a hostages head moving away on uneven ground and you have your rifle supported on a car. Even at 100yards or less the added accuracy of a .25MOA rifle over a 1 MOA can be tremendous. 1 inch can make all the difference in the world and the last thing you need to think about is the fact that your rifle can be just a bit off. You have enough things to think about.
 

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Right on, Spade. Take a rest when you can, but the hunters best tool is a fast offhand shot.

Take a look at a rifle without .25 moa accuracy and you'll see how much they cut down on human error though. Lets say my aim is off by 2 inches at 100m...okay, 1.25 inches is the farthest away I can be. now say a Win 94 with 3 moa potential...I could be off by 4 inches at random there and so on.
 

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I like really accurate rifles as much as the next guy, but the more I think about it, the single most important attribute for a truly great rifle is that it should shoot to the same point of impact with that all important first shot out of a cold barrel.

If it will do that and shoot reasonable groups, i.e. MOA or better, then you have a real treasure.


Mad
 

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your right mad, i never even thought about the cold bore shot. Which si dumb because its probably the most used.
 

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Right on, on the Cold Bore we have to keep our Cold Bore in a 1inch range at 100 every time we qualify, and our 5 shot group in the T zone on the FBI target.

Times are limited too, and for one part we have to shoot after a 4 min run, starting with an unloaded rifle. We have to have the ammo laid out do the run, return, and on command move from standing to prone, load, and engage the target with varying numbers of rounds depending on the phase. Not all phases require the run, but all are timed.

So having a accurate rifle is very important to shooting under stress, as it takes one source of error out of the mix.
 

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Im not sure what police sharpshooters do... but i know that all US Military Sniper units practice many different shooting stances and angles. For instance... leaning the rifle on its side and shooting under a fence... or shooting from a moving vehicle... I think the reason most "sniper enthusiasts" only shoot from the prone position or bench is simply because thats what the local shooting range allows. They might not like it when you start popin off rounds from behind the shooting line under a table lying upsidedown... :lol: lol :D . Obviously... if you own your own property or know a shooting range that has these different stages that would be great and you should take full advantage of it. And about the Military Sniper Weapons and ammunition / Accuracy... check out this thread it has stuff about my Remington M-700 LTR TWS and the US Marine Corps M-40A3. http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/vie ... php?t=1289
 

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Discussion Starter #10
thanks guys. i totally understand the stance on having a weapon that is error free. the point i was trying to convey is that some guys think because they can punch paper they are as good as say a marine corp sniper.

ballistic, is the kind of accuracy you are talking on the m40a3's common with the old m118 ammo?
 

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No... especially when firing multiple box's of ammo. The older M-118 was a lead base bullet... thus dumping lead into the barrel. You could expect 1 inch groups to .75 inch groups @ 100 yards. But dont try and shoot for accuracy without cleaning it every 20 to 40 shots with the old M-118. Thats what was holding back the M-24 SWS from being really accurate... same with the M-40A1. The newer M-118LR is much better.
 

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bocephus said:
the point i was trying to convey is that some guys think because they can punch paper they are as good as say a marine corp sniper.
We call them "Range Snipers". And there seems to be a lot of them :D

The M118LR is easily twice as accurate as the M118. Not only is the bullet better, but the powder charge is more consistent and its loaded to much better tolerances all the way around. Its a good round.

MEL
 

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The best i have ever shot with M-118 is just below 1 MOA.. it was like .9999999 MOA :lol: lol
 

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We call them "Range Snipers". And there seems to be a lot of them :D


MEL
That would be me the range sniper :D
or the fat one legged guy that out shoots all his local law officers
and swat members :lol:
but ive also pulled off some pretty good shots in the woods
 

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What kind of accuracy do you have to shoot to qualify for "range sniper"? Maybe I could carry some sort of title...
 

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Better accuracy then everyone else on the range, thats all :lol:
 

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Ballistic_Coefficiency said:
The best i have ever shot with M-118 is just below 1 MOA.. it was like .9999999 MOA :lol: lol
Well, I've shot enough of the stuff to have actually done better than that. We generally were right below 1 MOA with our M24, but occasionally things would click



Not a bad group.... until you realize it was shot at 500 yards (then its a fantastic group). That measures to right at about .25 MOA. Now, this is certainly NOT typical. But occasionally you get a lot that does shoot good. Like I said before, M118LR is much more consistent and more accurate. (in case anyone is wondering, the white blotch is the serial number of the rifle, it doesn't need to be broadcast across the internet :D)

MEL
 

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Kaz said:
What kind of accuracy do you have to shoot to qualify for "range sniper"? Maybe I could carry some sort of title...
Well, you have to of shot a tighter group than a qualified sniper at some point in your life (only need to do it once). This means you can boast that "I am a far better shot than the Scout Sniper I shot with, so clearly I am as good, and probably better, than any sniper out there... I guess that means I really am a real sniper". :roll:

MEL
 
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