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Rimfire marksmanship and what it can accomplish.

16129 Views 21 Replies 15 Participants Last post by  chitemazykir
Sigh. So some of this comes from reflection on the "art of learning" thread nearby.

I often go on and on about what competition shooter can do, and we hear a lot of what military shooters can do, and snipers of all types, but when it comes right down to it, the average person with a little gumption can raise themselves to a very high level of marksmanship with nothing more than a simple .22 and several pounds of ammo.

Long rifle marksmanship is about learning to shoot a rifle--any rifle--well. As long as it is safe, the rifle type and caliber is irrelevant, but let me tell you what a Remington 514 can accomplish.

The rifle is an early 1950's model 514 .22 S-L-LR single-shot bolt-action with a trigger that moves about 3/8" before breaking and wiggles in the action, unbedded sporter walnut stock, 24" light contour barrel that (oh HORRORS!) is not at all floated, and is currently on her second refinishing. The only modifications were a new bolt about 10 years ago when the original gave out (sheer # of rounds), and a sight elevator timing with hand file in the 50's by my grandfather. Though the action has been routinely cleaned, I'm guessing the barrel has been fully cleaned of wax less than 10 times. Don't take me wrong, it is in beautiful shape, and has not been abused, but it is not "match grade" in any sense of the cliche. It's mostly eaten .22LR, but I've fed it lots of shorts, CB caps, shot shells, and CB Long ammo as well. Many of you have a rifle sitting in the corner just like it, having not shot it since you were a kid.

As did my dad, I grew up on that rifle from age 7 on (when dad would only give me 3 shells for the day), and never missed a beat feeding it through my teenage years. My favorite past time (other than sparrow/starling/squirrel hunting) was shooting steel fence posts as far as I could see them. For those not familiar, these posts are a "T" cross section, and approximately 1.5" across at the top of the "T". I missed a lot for awhile, then began to hit them, and now if I take my time, I don't often miss out to 50 or 75 yards. I've hit posts as far as 200 yards, and just shot my range's wind flag post yesterday to make sure I still could.

The smallest group I ever shot with it was right at 3/8" at 50 yards on a paper plate, but that doesn't tell the story, because the longest kill with it was a groundhog at just over 200 yards by my old man in high school. He is, of course, the same person who taught me how to drive a rifle.


The point of all this is that basic marksmanship is not about the equipment, it's mostly about YOU, and PRACTICE.

If you want to learn how to really shoot, my best advice is to buy a $100 dollar single-shot .22 with iron sights, and about 10,000 rounds of Winchester Wildcat. Take your spouse, kids, friends, and learn how to shoot a rifle on your own two feet holding it with your hands. At first, prone need not apply. When you can learn to steer a rifle into groups the size of your fist at 100 yards, then you have learned to be a Shooter. At this point, just about every other shooting position and type becomes gravy. I am still personally in pursuit of this level, but I am beginning to see some big light at the end of the tunnel, and it is a very bright light indeed.


.22LR...Practice. Wax on, wax off. :wink:

-Nate
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Great post thanks for sharing
I still have my Rem. 510 single shot it was my first rifle, my kids learned how to shoot with it and now my grandkids are learning with it. Lots of practice with a .22 may not make you a great marksman but it will make you a better one.
The .22 lr is truly the rifleman's cartridge because that is where most great rifleman started out.
Besides any time spent shooting a .22 rifle is not counted against your life. :D

Pat
My CZ 452 (iron sites) in usually the first and last rifle I shoot when I go to the range. It sort of warms me up in a way and gets me dialed in. I'll be the first to admit that I can't shoot a group the size of my fist at 100yds but I can at 50yds. Don't forget the airgun too. When I can't get to the range, I'll shoot the .22cal pellet gun in the backyard.

Its 52yds to the back fence and an old milk jug makes a good airgun target at that range especially when shooting freehand. Shooting freehand with a small caliber rifle is, in my opinion, one of the most challenging ways to practice and most beneficial.
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Yes, shooting anything is better than watching TV,lol. 22's really are great. Maybe that's why I have 12. :mrgreen:
I would have to agree that most people started out on a .22, like I did also. The greatest thing about a .22 is you can practice all day for a 20$ bill :wink: I gave up shooting many years ago but have returned recently, and the best .22 I have ever bought was the one I just got for my son on Christmas so we can shoot together :D I shoot a Marlin 39A lever action that was my fathers.
Believe it or not, at age 12 I learned gun handling with a crossman 22 cal pellet air gun. I had an old decrepid garage building that always had a target hanging on it, various large trees in the yard and a couple of brush piles on either side of the yard. Anything that moved was a target, except tame animals. My 2nd story bedroom window was dead center and gave a platform for steady shooting.

More recently, about fifteen years ago I lived in a place that had no houses in a five mile area between six oclock and nine oclock and my 572 remington shot many a thrown up walnut. Six out of ten was about all I could accomplish but I had a good command of that gun. Offhand out to about 50 yrds was death to small game with that gun. I even lost the front sight and replaced it with one out of another gun and it is still more accurate than I am.

I think handling a shotgun at a trap or skeet range is good for learning familiarztion with firearms as well and it took me a long time to get my first 100 straight. Point being, shoot, shoot, and while your shooting, shoot some more. Eventually you will become adequate with anything you pick up, whether it's a pellet gun or a 50 caliber.

If you ever get the chance to see the film made by Winchester called Herb Parsons, The Showman Shooter, it's worth it to see that guy in action. That was my inspiration for throwing things in the air and shooting.
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At this point, just about every other shooting position and type becomes gravy. I am still personally in pursuit of this level, but I am beginning to see some big light at the end of the tunnel, and it is a very bright light indeed.
Nate, I honestly believe that snap shooting is a different game to target or precision shooting to master both at the same time makes you a true rifleman. By this I mean a 50 round group under 1/2 MOA prone off a bi-pod at 100, 10 rounds offhand (no sling) in 3 MOA. To do this requires talent, time, money and dedication. If I ever manage that and 600 clays straight in one day I will consider myself good enough behind the gun, then it is just a matter of learning conditions well enough :lol: . I don't see it any happening time soon but hey goals should be high.
Lucky me got to go to the range this weekend. As always, I spent a lot of time with my CZ 452. I thought I was doing well shooting off a sandbag at 100 yards and hitting a 8" shoot-n-see 100% with iron sites. My heart sank when I looked over to the kid on the 200yrd lane next to me sitting crosslegged with what appeared to be a NM HBAR AR 15 hitting the equivalent target (according to his score keeper). He appeared to be shooting handloads (assumption based on the plastic box) . Anyways, I can barely even see an 8" target at 200yds through iron sites much less nail it. What do I have to do to get that good... or is that even good?

In any case, I was glad to see another American youth involved in marksmanship.
TylerTX said:
Lucky me got to go to the range this weekend. As always, I spent a lot of time with my CZ 452. I thought I was doing well shooting off a sandbag at 100 yards and hitting a 8" shoot-n-see 100% with iron sites. My heart sank when I looked over to the kid on the 200yrd lane next to me sitting crosslegged with what appeared to be a NM HBAR AR 15 hitting the equivalent target (according to his score keeper). He appeared to be shooting handloads (assumption based on the plastic box) . Anyways, I can barely even see an 8" target at 200yds through iron sites much less nail it. What do I have to do to get that good... or is that even good?

In any case, I was glad to see another American youth involved in marksmanship.
Well, Tyler, that's a mixed bag in my opinion, but it's always better to have been on the range than not. Don't be too hard on yourself, and don't be too quick to compare yourself to everyone else...shooting is like Track and Field that way: it's more about you versus you.

On the one hand, a good shooter can repeatedly hit that same 8" target at 200 yards standing. I am one of those shooters that happens to have a relatively easy time of offhand shooting, and I would not miss an 8" target very many times at 200, and well less than 1% of the time at 100 yards...and you won't see any National tites on my wall yet... :) Individuals such as Sherri Gallagher, David Tubb, Carl Bernosky, etc. can likely hit that target at 300 yards a lot of the time, unless it's windy.

Now then, regarding shooting sitting, you should understand that it's not like this kid was just sitting there free-hand shooting. He was undoubtedly slung-up tight, and shooting a rifle with iron sights that are set up specifically to shoot that target. If his position and trigger control are worth a crap, he's holding 2.5 MOA or under for 10-shot groups. If he's really good, it can be even smaller. The KEY to this style and level of shooting is the sling. Without it, or without using it properly, EVERY position becomes just like a slightly upgraded offhand position, and that's not good for shooting.

Also. We don't shoot at 8" targets at 200 yards, we shoot at 13" targets, with a 7" Ten ring. It goes back to the addage of "you can only shoot what you can see", and it has been determined that the 13" 9-ring is what everyone should be able to see. Just because ALLLL that black is THERE doesn't mean I want to punch holes all over it...the 9-ring is the losing ring.

Don't take it personally that this youth was hammering, as he may have been shooting Highpower since he was 7. Just maybe take from it that there is a whole new style and eschelon of shooting you've not seen much of before now. This is NRA Highpower, and it is open to all comers. Just find your local Highpower group, (or tell me where you live, and I'll do it for you) and inquire about a "Highpower clinic" coming up this spring. From attending that, you can judge if this is something you want to pursue, OR that we are all a bunch of crazy wankers with too much time and ammo on our hands... :D

Good shooting,
-Nate
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You guessed right. The kid had a 1903 style leather sling and was using it correctly with the loop high on his left arm. He also wore heavy leather gloves, some kind of heavy canvas jacket with elbow pads and was on a shooting mat. I have none of these things, not that it would make a big difference for me. My shooting exprience is limited to rabbits and prairie dogs on the farm when I was a kid and dove/deer hunting as an adult. I always thought I was a pretty decent shot but when you really think about it, this type of hunting really doesn't require expert skill by any means. Becomming a real marksman is something I would be willing to put a lot of time into but here in Tyler, Texas, there are no formal shooting clubs. Hell, the range I shoot at doesn't even have a rangemaster. I think the closest range that has organized activity is East Texas Rifle and Pistol Club in Longview. That's over an hour drive from me which isn't too bad but isn't great either. If you know of a closer one please let me know. In the mean time, I'm going to get a sling for that .22 and a couple more bricks of ammo.
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TylerTX said:
You guessed right. The kid had a 1903 style leather sling and was using it correctly with the loop high on his left arm. He also wore heavy leather gloves, some kind of heavy canvas jacket with elbow pads and was on a shooting mat. I have none of these things, not that it would make a big difference for me.
Youuu might be surprised.... These hot 20lb coats we all wear aren't there for fun: "You just worry about hydration, and let the coat worry about the score." Slings are the most important addition. The mats....eh...I can shoot just as well without mine, it's just not as comfy.

TylerTX said:
My shooting exprience is limited to rabbits and prairie dogs on the farm when I was a kid and dove/deer hunting as an adult. I always thought I was a pretty decent shot but when you really think about it, this type of hunting really doesn't require expert skill by any means. Becomming a real marksman is something I would be willing to put a lot of time into but here in Tyler, Texas, there are no formal shooting clubs.
Dude...don't cut yourself so short. Prior to 2008, all the shooting I'd ever done was hunting, and practice for hunting. That, and the occasional "bet you a quarter" shots against my old man. Everything I've done over the past 2 years on the ranges is just an extension of the same basic skill set my dad taught me, and my grandpa taught him. It is not impossible to achieve what you want, but it will not come for free. Don't be surprised when you find you're the only person on the range on those rainy & blustery days in November when its time to start pratice for next year...and don't be surprised when "all of a sudden" you can hit things with a rifle that nobody you ever plinked or hunted with can. And I know for a fact that Texas can produce as good a wind-shooter as anywhere in the world.

TylerTX said:
I think the closest range that has organized activity is East Texas Rifle and Pistol Club in Longview. That's over an hour drive from me which isn't too bad but isn't great either. If you know of a closer one please let me know.
Well, there's GTGC south of Beaumont, that would be right at 4 hrs. There's Temple Gun Club in Temple, TX, and that would be right about 3 hours. There's Terrell Rifle and Pistol Cub just northeast of Terrell, TX....about an hour. And finally, there's Panola County Gunclub just east of Carthage, TX which is only about 1.5 hours.

Sorry, it doesn't always get much closer than an hour. I routinely drive 2-6 hours for matches, and that's here in the midwest.

Here's another good resource to check out: http://forums.delphiforums.com/texashighpower/start

TylerTX said:
In the mean time, I'm going to get a sling for that .22 and a couple more bricks of ammo.
hehehe...always a good call. I'd watch out running too high sling tension on that CZ, or any other stock not specifically designed for slung shooting. No need to rip that swivel stud out at 75 pounds of tension... :p Get some regulation NRA targets as well.

Good luck, any questions, just lemme know.
-Nate
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natdscott said:
The point of all this is that basic marksmanship is not about the equipment, it's mostly about YOU, and PRACTICE.
I shoot USPSA Pistol and see a lot of guys out there with good equipment who aren't doing that much better than others with basic stuff. There is a certain amount of natural talent at work but most of the really good shooters will advise newer shooters to just find something they are comfortable with and practice - spend the money on ammo, not gear.

I fully admit I don't do enough dry fire or live fire practice. So, whenever I see a really nice 2011 Limited Pistol and start to drool, I think, "OK Smith, once you can shoot better than your Glock 35, then you can get that new pistol." Not sure that's likely to happen any time real soon, but you never know.
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Thanks so much for the advice and encouragement. I'll be able to hit the range again this weekend and plan on burning a lot of .22 ammo. I've also sent out a membership app to the Longview range that hosts regular meets. Since I'm now hooked, you find it no surprise that I've bought a used DPMS National Match upper with a hidden free float tube and NM sights. I took the Lego handguards off (because they look stupid to me) and am trying to fit some surplus triangle handguards (nothing looks cooler). As you can imagine this is a bit of a problem since the triagle guards were ment to fit Gov't contoured barrels. Well turns out a little Dremmel action can fix that right up. My only concern is that I may have compromised the integrity of the handguards by trimming then. The free float tube takes all the tension from the sling so really the handguards shouldn't be under a lot of stress right?
What do you think?


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Well good. That's wht I was hoping might happen.. :lol:

Do you have any idea of the round count on that Panther?

No, if the rifle is put together right, the barrel doesn't take the stress from your position, just the float tube. My advice to you would be to shoot the rifle for a season, as-is. Over the next several months, it will break you in and see if it likes you or not, then you can maybe buy it absurdly expensive things in tiny boxes from the likes of Geissele and SSS. Until then, just feed her decent ammo and see where the relationship is going to go.

-Nate
Seems a good place to bring this thread back: Recoil's Reduced Range Target Practice. Reduced Range Target Practice USM | Sometimespace

I shoot Olympic style prone - 25/50/100yd/m. Free slung, no bags or bipods. Aperture sights.

And I practice.

A lot.

And I coach - Which instils the lessons in me even deeper as I pass them on to others.

If you can shoot a .22 in the wind and rain, then more powerful rifles with heavier ammo isn't going to be too much of a jump. The variables increase (although the light weight .22 round does a damn good job of getting you reading the wind, even for a short flight). I shot full bore for a while, but I find this level of .22 match shooting far more precise and focused - and challenging.
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Here's that report to save you clicking the link. I wrote it in 2008. Some things have changed - Like I have improved...

A fair few of you have asked for a report from me.....I've not wanted to do one before because what I do is not like what you mostly do. It can't be compared - even though it is still lead tossing, it is a different school of lead tossing.

Right, I need to make it clear that I am not bragging - I am not showing off, and I am not saying that I am better than anyone else.I do this. It is my thing. I don't have to be able to run with a bergen, I don't need to kill to survive and/or protect.I sling my rifle, look through a dioptre sight (just a 3.7mm hole in a glass ring) and just shoot at small black spots with a "tack driver" that will always be able to out perform me.



I practice. A lot.I joined SC to help gain some skills to help me. Skills that the "usual" target shooter probably wouldn't be able to give me.I shoot at targets that are much smaller than the reduced range practice pictures that Recoil put up. My usual 25yd target card (I shoot up to 100yds with the .22)is made up of ten individual diagrams that mean I have to move around the card - 1 shot in each diagram. This means upsetting my position very slightly for each shot.



Those black dots I shoot at....I have to hit inside the very middle ring every time to win....without touching the line at all. That's a lot of dry firing, relaxation techniques, focusing, listening to others....and practice. Currently I have a 98.2 average - by no means the best. That middle ring counts as 10 points - and a 10 spot card can give you 100 points. Simple stuff.When I shot Recoils reduced range targets I was just out for fun. As I did not have to move around the paper I could just punch away. Because of the results I even got my Club President to sign as a witness.

Why did I say "Newbies stay away?" - A bit of a joke - but I always wanted to play guitar. After hearing Jimi Hendrix I realised I'd never be that good - so never started to learn. If you're a newbie, then just practice...I've only had 3 years trigger time - but I'm in engineering and was taught my whole life to "LISTEN and DO AS I AM TAUGHT".I was also told that you never stop learning - so never stop listening.I'm only as good as the people who help me - and that means each shot I fire has a little bit of all of you in it. For that I thank you.



RIGHT.....Those darn reduced range targets.....20 shots from a single loader bolt gun. 2 minutes (well....just shy of 2 minutes). That included removing the jam caused by my fat fingers ramming a case (my very first jam!!!!)Keeping on one target without moving made this an easy task for me. My eye stayed behind the sights and my ammo was exactly where it had to be to just reach, pick, load, pull...It has taken 3 years to get my position this far....and I'm still not happy with it...



That fubar round....Don't panic, dump it, reload, keep shooting.



Man....20 shots.... most of those just went through and hit the back wall....and my ammo isn't cheap (for a .22!!!)A bit more relaxing. Once the first shot goes in, the rest follow - once more thanks to me just having to hold one position (unlike the movement I am usually used to). These diagrams took 10 minutes total to shoot....and yes....that is 10 shots in each.



I put these in a range report because I didn't want to post them in Recoils "reduced Range" thread. I'm a hard practising focused competition shooter - and I didn't want these pictures to put anyone else off of having a go.To be honest with you - I'm a bit embarrassed about even posting them here - It just feels like I'm bragging (Recoil will say grow a spine now!!!!)
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Great Thread!
I shoot my 10-22 more lately as I have been working on different
shooting techniques. Great practice for shooting larger calibers.

The problem is right now 22lr is hard to find.
PSA has CCI SV and AutoMatch.
When you get a bolt action then you need to learn what Eley, RWS, SK, Lapua Center X, and Wolf ME are.
I scored a brick of Federal 711B this weekend for $51.
Norma Tac -22 is decent for semiautomatics. Geco Semiautomatic is too.

The best 22 ammo is not made in the USA

I have shot Aguila to some decent groups too.
Just google those ammo brands
I sometimes see people wanting to "get into long range shooting" ... and I give them the same advice I followed, which I think all came from this forum, but it doesn't all seem to be in this one thread, so I thought I'd add a little bit more here.
The OP emphasizes use of .22LR for fundamentals training/practice and that is the "base camp" of all that follows and I've fired over 2000 rds in the past 2 years (re) learning the fundamentals. These were slowly fired rounds, an average of maybe 10 rds per session. Aimed shots, recorded groups, trying to learn from every round.
But there is more. Beyond fundamentals there is using the .22LR as a "simulator" for long range shooting. I take the .22LR, a Laser Range Finder (LRF) and a Kestrel, together with the DOPE card on the .22LR and head out to the field. I set up a target and then wander around in my open pasture and lase 300yds, and move a little if needed to get to "exactly" 300yds. Then I use the Kestrel, my sense of feel (wind on my cheeks) hearing (trees moving) eyes (trees and grass bending) to determine direction and speed of wind, over a 2 minute period. Then I get on the gun, set the elevation knob to make sure it matches the DOPE card setting for the elevation and then finalize my mental calculation about what I will hold for wind. If I hear, see or feel the wind increasing or decreasing I will slightly adjust the hold for that. And I do same during the shooting of the group. I will adjust hold dynamically if the sound or sight or feel indicates. I shoot 3-5 rd group and then go to target to assess. Any subsequent group is starting over again. I do not allow myself to "cheat" and adjust for wind with the second group, based on what happened with the first group. Each group stands alone (this helps emphasize first shot hit). I fire groups to enable "group" assessment which might show issues with fundamentals or distance or wind or otherwise. At 300yds, the Eley Edge ammo (balace of cost and acceptable performance for my purpose) has droppage roughly equal to .338LM at 850 yds and 5 MPH wind drift for EE at 300yds is also about the same as .338LM at 850yds. So I am simulating shooting the .338LM at 850yds, by shooting the .22LR at 300yds.
I can't shoot at 850yds, on my land, only out to 600yds, so using the .22LR as a LR simulator helps me practice activities useful for LR shooting with heavier calibers, without the need for the higher ammo expense or the need to drive 100s of miles to a place where I can shoot 850yds or higher. And somewhere on this forum was where I got the idea. Someone said don't buy .338LM to start, first shoot .22LR 200-300ds and get that nailed and then try heavier calibers at longer ranges. So I put that advice into practice and it is working for me.

Here is current validated DOPE card I am using.

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The smallest group I ever shot with it was right at 3/8" at 50 yards on a paper plate, but that doesn't tell the story, because the longest kill with it was a groundhog at just over 200 yards by my old man in high school. He is, of course, the same person who taught me how to drive a rifle.
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