[sanginreaper]

Sorry, RmikeD, as it sounds you are beyond my understanding of it.. I don't know if you noticed, but I am EXTREMELY new to this as well. That said, I don't think I can be much help with the science behind what is happening, maybe somebody else here could chime in

 

[Orkan]

I was going to go into detail with a long explanation of why I feel the way I do about this subject, but instead I'll pose a couple quick questions that just might lead some of you to discover it for yourselves. Who here thinks that the ability of mans subconscious mind exceeds the capability of the conscious mind?

If not, why not?

If so, provide a simplistic example of our minds subconscious capability in the physical world.

 

[RMikeD]

Yes Orkan, I do. Why do you Ask? I believe when David killed Goliath with a sling (1 Sam ch 17), he mustered up all his skills to slide that stone through his face shield ( with a sling) and kill him with brain injury. He then cut off his head with Goliath's own sword. What a set of gonads David had refusing wear armour because he could not maneuver well like when he was killing animals trying to kill his sheep. I believe if a guy ( thru practice) can repeatably can't his rifle so the reticle is plumb with gravity then it should not matter that it is canted. I just can't do that from my archery experience. For any of you that don't share my faith, no offense intended. But the more I have learned about this amazing world the more I know that there is a Creator. I work with Nuclear Engineers and other Scientists that share my beliefs-not that it matters. I wish I could subconsciously shoot well at long ranges but I prefer to apply reliable physical principles. But you have it understand them to do that and that is not easy. I know experience is invaluable and when you couple knowledge and experience you have the best chance for success.

 

[deadshot2]

Who here thinks that the ability of mans subconscious mind exceeds the capability of the conscious mind?

If not, why not?

If so, provide a simplistic example of our minds subconscious capability in the physical world.

I definitely believe our subconcious is more capable than our concious mind.

Perfect example of this occurred to me recently. While walking back from removing my target at the 200 yard line I "subconsciously" walked to the LH side of the range and followed the side berm back to the firing line. When I reached the 100 yard target line I heard a shot. Sounded a little strange and I though I just heard a funny echo from the adjoining range. When I reached the firing line I was told by my fellow shooters that a "FNG" had come back from taping his target at the 100 yard line, come back and turned off the Cease Fire bell, then sent a round down range. Apparently he couldn't see me walking back just 20 feet from his target.

I've never thought about it prior to this time but I have always walked back from target setting or retrieval at the side of the range rather than just the straightest line to my position. Only explanation would be my 'subconscious' working to save my ass.



Another thing I've learned in life is "The more I learn the more I realize there is a lot more to learn".

 

[MarkChambers]

There is a difference between automatic behavior that is born of practice and discipline, like typing, or slinging a stone, or walking down the side of the range, or flipping the safety on or opening a bolt. That type of behavior is learned. On the other hand there are sub conscious acts of adaption and accommodation (which "I think" may be where Orkan is going) done in and by the mind that are independent of not only disciplined practice but any conscious effort at all. The following example may be lost on youngsters that have yet to know the joys of bifocals but it does identify the process so I'll use it.

The first time a person puts on a pair of bifocals, and then with each successive new pair where the is a change in prescription, it is much like looking through a fish bowl. The transition across the various magnifications--especially in a gradient type lens--is more than a bit disconcerting. It can be almost nauseating. The only cure is to wear them. There is nothing else that one does or can do but to look through them. Without any conscious effort on the part of the person the brain adapts, sometimes within a matter of a few hours but rarely more than a day or two. The mind compensates for the variances independent of any effort on the part of the wearer.

One ought to be able to see how that transfers over to the rifle/reticle. And I'm one that thinks the whole unit should be plumb however the stock may fit the shoulder.

 

[RMikeD]

Another thing I've learned in life is "The more I learn the more I realize there is a lot more to learn".

Truer words have not been written

 

[MarkChambers]

The mind's eye does not like a window out of square, a counter that tilts to one side and a flag pole the is not straight and plumb

 

[deadshot2]

One ought to be able to see how that transfers over to the rifle/reticle. And I'm one that thinks the whole unit should be plumb however the stock may fit the shoulder.

That's why my rifle stocks have adjustable butt-plates. They 'fit" and the whole unit is still plumb.

FWIW, the human brain is a lot like a computer. It comes with a "BIOS" that makes us breath and our heart pump. We add the "Software" as we learn to walk, talk, etc. "Data" is added as we learn. As for the Concious vs Subconcious, just think of it as working with an application on the screen and several others running in the background. Other than those that were programmed by the creator (life support systems), the rest is a matter of what we have learned.

Lots of things can be working in the background that our 'concious mind' is unaware of.

 

[MarkChambers]

The adaptive properties of the sub conscious mind are inherent, not learned.

 

[Orkan]

Exercise 1:
From where you are sitting, find a small object across the room. Now look at something about 90 degrees from it. Now close your eyes. With your eyes closed, point at the original small object, then open your eyes. Were you pointing at it? I have yet to train with a human being that could not point PRECISELY at the thing that they can not see. Once they "believe" they can do it more accurately than they can do it with their eyes open, the neural pathway gets opened up and they find that they often CAN do it more precisely with their eyes closed. I've talked at length with a few blind people and they helped me study the mechanism by which this happens. If you ever get the chance... ask a blind person how they see the world. It might surprise you.

Exercise 2:
Take a very full glass of water and attempt to walk across the room. First by staring at the water, then by completely removing the water from your sight. Ignore the water, and you don't spill.

Evidence of our subconscious minds ability to interface with our world better than our conscious mind can be seen almost everywhere. I can list hundreds of examples, but suffice it to say that mans abilities far outpace what is known to us. This concept is heavily entwined in our training programs. As it pertains to this topic of discussion in this thread, every human being has a "level" built into our bodies. Our bodies operate things in the physical world according to input from that level, and we can not see it. Our brain functions at a more precise and FAR faster rate than our capacity for conscious thought. This is a hardened FACT. Taking advantage of that fact is one of the core principles of my entire methodology.

Carrying a glass of water without spilling must be "allowed" to happen, not forced. In this way, much of operating a precision rifle must be allowed to happen, not forced. This is easily evident and proven when I can take a student struggling to produce a 1" group at 25x magnification, and have them shoot their next group under .25" at 5x magnification. Any of you whom have read my articles on our website regarding shooting technique will see this mindset heavily embedded in what I teach.

 

[Medcomm1]

I have a new Tikka T3 CTR. I am wanting to know if lapping the scope rings are worth the hassle. The base plate is the stock picatinny rail, and I did pull it to check bedding. Seems to look and feel really well with no need to modify. I am using Weaver medium profile tactical scope rings. I'm sure there are better ones out there, but searching the reviews I don't see any real point switching at this time. I do however want to make sure my Vortex Viper HS-T 6x24x50mm Scope is aligned properly. Any info would be great!

Mike

 

[deadshot2]

I have a new Tikka T3 CTR. I am wanting to know if lapping the scope rings are worth the hassle. The base plate is the stock picatinny rail, and I did pull it to check bedding. Seems to look and feel really well with no need to modify. I am using Weaver medium profile tactical scope rings. I'm sure there are better ones out there, but searching the reviews I don't see any real point switching at this time. I do however want to make sure my Vortex Viper HS-T 6x24x50mm Scope is aligned properly. Any info would be great!

Mike

You only need to lap scope rings if they are out of alignment or out of round. If you start with a nice straight rail and a set of rings that were machined as a pair you don't need to lap.

The cheaper the rings the greater the likelihood you will need to lap. Go with a set of Badger or Seekins rings on a decent rail (I like EGW), and you probably won't need to "go to the bar".

 

[adfisher]

If your scope hs a flat bottom, use that surface to square on the rail. takes min.

 

[Djstorm100]

^ what he said or feeler gauges, most (if not all) quality scopes are flat on the bottom.

 

[waveslayer]

Use a deck of cards to level your scopes... it will level it to the mounts

 

[MDSniper521]

I have a Tikka T3 (LH) with a Weaver 4-16x scope. The adjustments on the turrets are 1/4 MOA. Is there an easy way to level it and ensure that at 100yds the turrets will be 0,0 (elev,wind)? My apologies if this is in the wrong place, I'm new here.

 

[waveslayer]

I would go to the range and take a level draw a vertical and horizontal lines and test your cross hairs to it. but your bore needs to be level so placing a small piece of aluminum in the chamber and placing a small level then using a level on your scope you can check if your scope is level to the bore...

 

[NorCalFocus]

I have a Tikka T3 (LH) with a Weaver 4-16x scope. The adjustments on the turrets are 1/4 MOA. Is there an easy way to level it and ensure that at 100yds the turrets will be 0,0 (elev,wind)? My apologies if this is in the wrong place, I'm new here.

Leveling out a scope for elevation is very hard if not impossible. Scope leveling is leveling the scope horizontally to your action. In long range shooting many times we slant our scopes forward vertically to add increased up travel in the scope for longer range adjustments. Zeroing the scope is simply sighting in the gun at your intended zero range. (Usually 100 yards) Once sighted in you adjust your turrets back to zero.

The easiest way to level your scope is using feeler gauges. You stack the feelers between a flat spot on your receiver or scope base, and a flat spot on your scope. I'll have to get you a picture later.

 

[deadshot2]

The easiest way to level your scope is using feeler gauges. You stack the feelers between a flat spot on your receiver or scope base, and a flat spot on your scope. I'll have to get you a picture later.

You can also use a larger allen wrench. Get one that just fits between rail and flat on scope bottom then rotate it. If he scope is just loose enough to rotate this will often straighten things up real quick.

Don't forget, once you have everything leveled you're only half way there. You now need to see if the internal mechanism actually tracks along a vertical line as you adjust and shoot. Time for the "thermometer target" to finish the job.

 

[natdscott]

Leveling out a scope for elevation is very hard if not impossible.

And that, ladies and gentleman, is the straight truth.

It can be done if a person has a lot of knowledge, patience, good measuring tools (micrometer and ideally, a 0.0005" dial indicator and stand), a good assortment of shim stock and sandpaper, a lapping bar, and some epoxy. Even then, the closest you should expect to get is within a few MOA, and that is PLENTY close enough.

It was not worth it to me, when I can just get a scope with more adequate elevation if needed.

-Nate