[Ross L.]

ok ok i know sniping is primarly done with bold actions. But me being an officer i tend to think of worst case stituations. such as multiple suspects and you wont have time to work the bolt. so i was wondering what everyones first choice would be for a semi-auto snipers rifle.

thanks all hope to get some feed back from you all.

 

[Ross L.]

oops

i ment bolt not bold

 

[FLEA]

Semi Auto's come in handy

I think the M25, SR-25, PSG1 all make great sniper rifles, but when it come to true accuracy bolt actions are just a bit more reliable.

I feel there are better suited for spotters in case the situation call for it, but when centimeters make the difference I'll stick to my remington.

 

[mele]

A lot of the semi's are starting to get pretty accurate, but you are limited in options. The PSG-1 is great, but heavy and expensive (tune of $10,000). The SR-25 breed of rifles and the M1A's are about all thats left if you are thinking .308 and readily available. The M1A's are more money, and pretty good, offering better reliability then the SR25's, AR-10s, but these AR15 based rifles are sure getting more accurate as more and more people are supporting them. I would give accuracy to the AR breeds and reliability to the M1A family.

Overall, bolt guns get my vote. Repeatable accuracy, exceptional reliability, easy to operate, AND better for not leaving target identifiers (brass, etc). With training and a smooth bolt, follow-up shots happen in about 3-5 seconds.

MEL

 

[Nekekami]

The multiple suspect angle raises another concern with me.
If you need a semi-automatic for very rapid follow-up shots, you will most likely not have the time to place every shot as carefully as you wish. And with 7.62x51, that can lead to nasty overpenetration. In that case, going down to 5.56(maybe even an powered-down variant) could be an alternative.

In that range, the SIG 550 is a fairly good alternative. Another alternative is the FN FNC modified for sniper duty with a better barrel and a scope, bipod is optional. Both are quite heavy for their caliber, and thus stable when it comes to recoil.

But, the whole scenario is a big if, so take my advice for what it is, a suggestion for a very hypothetical case.

Nekekami

 

[morpheus]

I'm no sniper, so I could be wrong (I probably am). But even if you have a semi-auto, when you fired don't you have to rebuild your firing position? Wouldn't cycling the bolt as you recover from recoil, going to be about the same as you rebuild your position even from a semi? But of course I'm no expert.

 

[FLEA]

Wouldn't cycling the bolt as you recover from recoil, going to be about the same as you rebuild your position even from a semi?

Just depends on the person. It might be effective for a newer shooter because it is less steps and less movement of the rifle. When you get used to a bolt action follow up shots can be only seconds away, just takes practice.

A lot of people think its more difficult because they have tyo take thier hand off the trigger and for alot of beginners that means taking thier eyes outta the scope. Once you get used to the feel you will be fine.

 

[Guest]

Semi-Autos

Yeah the Stoner SR-25 is a nice rifle but for affordability you can't beat the DPMS Panther Arms Long Range .308 AR. Its only like $1000 and accurate, around .5 moa with match ammo, with semi-auto .308 powerand a familiar design.

 

[subThermal]

All me to abosrb some information here....

A lone police sniper rarely has to take out more than 1 tango at a time. Thats why SWAT teams use multiple snipers. Most police based scenarios are also under 200m, which generally means the guys brain is over his buddies before they hear the shot.

If you are alone, you cannot hope to make multiple quick headshots with hostages around, the tangos would be running like chickens when Mr. Leaders been re-arranged on the ground.

Follow-up shots I have found often depend on the type of rifle and ammo used. If you have a nice heavy tactical rifle firing .308 you can cycle the bolt and keep contact with the target fairly easily.

But I would agree that DPMS makes a great AR-15 sniper rifle, I have put a few through some of them and liked it very much. And they are extremly familiar (to me, read sig), and easy to clean. Don't forget fun to shoot.

 

[Nekekami]

SubThermal:

Having practiced together with NIS(Nationella InsatsStyrkan), the Swedish version of the FBI HRT, I can agree with you in that what you say about multiple snipers is the optimal solution in theory. As all soldiers know, theory and practice do not always meet.....

As for having multiple headshots, that is not always the best solution, just like police all over the world(primarily in the US and UK) have started to find out that firing rounds through the heart isn't always such a good solution, after it has led to the death of quite a few police officers.

A shot through the shoulder or thigh can also incapacitate, as evidenced by the hostage situation in Örebro, Sweden in 1986. 3 men under the influence of PCP and armed with AK4 battle rifles took an elderly couple as hostages. After a stand-off, the police were given permission to act, and the first shot was fired through the thigh of one of the suspects, whereby his muscles were torn, and couldn't hold his weight, so he toppled, and lost his weapon, and the two others were apprehended after they had been tear-gassed and flashed, one of them shot through the shoulder, his arm becoming useless, whereby his weapon was dropped too.

The police sniper was armed with a sniper-modified AK4(Now they have AI AW rifles).

 

[Guest]

Nekekami- correct me if I am wrong. The AK4, that would be the select-fire .308 rifle that looks like a HK G3?
It seems that that would make an excellent sniper rifle, as it is basically a repro of Germany's late G3 SG1.
And last but not least, do you think that in this scenario, even with hostages and multiple armed men, a sniper with a bolt gun is just as well off? I'm willing to bet that this would be true, in this instance.
I am however convinced that any self-respecting police force should be equipped with both a precision bolt-action and a semi-auto, to be utilized as the incident dictates.

 

[Nekekami]

Jake:

The AK4 is the Swedish license-produced and modified version of the G3 battle rifle. Differences are barrel length, materials used etc. As for sniper use... It can be done, but my opinion is that it requires a lot of modifications. The ordinary Home Guards snipers here in Sweden are issued the AK4OR(Optiskt Riktmedel, Optical Aiming Device).

As for police, such a policy might very well stretch the budget. Yes, for most situations the bolt action rifle is the superior choice, but Murphy has a tendency to intrude upon our lives and tasks, so a semi-auto could become useful.

 

[subThermal]

I whoeheartedly agree with you Nek. It is optimal to have more than one sniper in a situation, but sometimes that can't be done, time restaints, etc.

But it is all situation based, there can be no 100% best way to do something involving humans because they are, for the most part, un-predictable. Especially hopped up on PCP.

I'm a big fan of incapacting someone, so you can then interrogate them. However, I am also a fan of knee-caps when it comes down to that.

For stopping someone cold, I shoot for the brainstem, to the left of the left eye. But as I said before, every situation is different. I was meerly trying to give the difference's between bolt action VS semi-auto for different situtations.

 

[Nekekami]

subThermal:

Exactly. Which is why being able to handle different rifle types is great, as well as practicing for a wide range of scenarios. In some excercises I've felt that I want to trade weapon with my spotter, who is armed with an AK5B(DMR version of the AK5, which is a modified FN FNC).

Nekekami

 

[Guest]

Nekekami, what did you say was your duty rifle? Is it the AI AW?

 

[Nekekami]

Jake:

My issued rifle is the PSG90. It's slightly different. A tad longer barrel, different bolt, bolt handle with large knob. The police are using 6x42 Hendsoldt scopes on their rifles, while the PSG90 has a 10x42 Hendsoldt scope.(And if anyone has a spare Hendsoldt 10x42 scope they feel they would like to donate to me, I'd gladly appreciate it :wink: )

 

[Guest]

Come to think of it, I do believe that you had mentioned that somewhere before. And how is it? I have heard that accuracy, repeatability and ergonomics of the AI and all of its derivatives cannot be beaten.

 

[Nekekami]

Jake:

I love the stock, it's very well balanced, with the weight distributed in a way that promotes a stable firing platform, especially for medium and long range. Ergonomics is highly dependant upon personal preferences.

As for accuracy, it can be beaten, but it's still one of the top contenders, in the hands of the right person. The thing with the AW series and the PSG90 is that they can take a lot of punishment and still stay accurate. Personally, I wouldn't want to carry a Blaser 93 through the situations my PSG90 have been in.

As for repeatability, that depends on the stability and how well you yourself can shoot, and how used you are to the stock.

Another stock that I like is the TRG by SAKO. However, it's got more of the weight concentrated rearwards. Makes it very good for rapid tracking however.

 

[morpheus]

Another stock that I like is the TRG by SAKO. However, it's got more of the weight concentrated rearwards. Makes it very good for rapid tracking however.

Oh, I heard those rifles are very good. How is the accuracy of those rifles? I bet they can easily go below .5 MOA with the right ammo? Nothing like good 'ol Finnish rifles. And aren't those expensive especially the .338 Lapua version?

 

[Jeff_850]

Im a big AR-15 fan, look at the Bushmaster Varminter, shoots 1/2 moa but its a .223, im not an expert so im not sure how this would do as a sniping round.
The DPMS Panther .308 I have heard good things about, havnt fired myself yet. Friends who have it have said accuracy is between 1/4 and 1 moa depending on who you talk to.