[AK]

I ran a quick search to make sure this wasn't redundant.

I noticed that the SR-25 seems to be gaining in popularity, but I wondered how accurate it would be in comparison to a "proper" sniper rifle, such as a M-40A3, which is current USMC issue, or the M-24 SWS, current US Army issue.

In my opinion, any semiautomatic rifle designed with a scope mount in mind is really a designated marksman's rifle, since my experiance with semiautomatics is limited to military-grade assault weapons restricted to semiauto, and a half-assed .22LR.

If by "Smoothing" the action on a semiautomatic, the accuracy that is required for a sniper rifle can be achieved to meet or exceed that of a traditional bolt-action rifle, then the Semiautomatic would fall out of the Designated Marksman's Rifle category (Such as the M-16A2/E3, and the SVD Dragunov) and into the realm of the sniper rifle. (Such as the HK PSG-1, Walther WA-2000.)

However, any accurate semiautomatic rifle I have heard of tends to be either too heavy or too delicate for military useage in a sniper role, such as the PSG-1 and the WA-2000. The M-21 and SVD-K rifles are surpassed by their bolt-action equivalents.

Therefore I suppose the question I am trying to ask at 0622 after no sleep for two days is:

- For operations in the realm of Military Sniping, would you prefer to be carrying a Bolt-Action or Semiautomatic rifle, based on your experiances and any knowledge gained?

 

[spade]

For urban landscapes , on a mission that encompased multiple targets and suppressive fire.... id take the semi auto.

For a single shot, anti personel , it would be the bolt action.

Surpassing accuracy is sometimes overwhelmed by the need to make consecutive followup shots, the need to use said rifle against targets which arent breathing (read mechanized) and the need for fast reacuisition of targets in a limited urban range. (I.E. >500m)

 

[AK]

This from Soviet sniper doctrine:
- If you miss your first shot with an SVD, having a round strike near the target should cause the target to freeze; thus resulting in the ability to make a follow-up shot.

 

[Scatch Maroo]

It's interesting that so many members of Sniper Central are, as well, insomniacs. I hope we all take a cat nap before we start to load these toys of ours...

Scatch Maroo

 

[mele]

First, many semi-autos today are getting AS accurate as bolt-actions, that being said:

In all sniping situations, I prefer bolt action.

1)No target identifiers left behind (brass)
2)Reliability is superior vs. semi auto
3)Follow up shots with bolt action can be as short as 3 seconds with training, not much behind a semi.
4)consistency consistency consistency. Too many moving parts with semi autos, when temp warms or cools, all those parts expand and contract, effecting consistency.
5)Velocity is superior with a bolt action for same length barrel
6)Easier to camo without interfering with operation of rifle (camo meaning: netting, foliage, not just paint)
7)More flexible stock designs to suit your preferences
8)"generally" more stable shooting platforms based on stock design.

there is my take... flame away.

MEL

 

[Jeff_850]

mels right about reliability though there are many semi-autos that are legendary for reliability eg M14/21/25 out there, none are as reliable as a quality bolt gun
and acccuracy- semi-autos are more than capable of good bolt gun accuracy- getting 1/2 moa out of an AR-15 or 10 seems to be pritty common now
they should all be as accurate as the military ammo that they will be using (1 MOA with M118 and a bit better with M118 LR)

stocks- the M25/M1As have McMillian fiberglass stocks available but the AR-15s all just have the basic A2 buttstock
Knights Armament's SR-25 uses the same A2 buttstock that the M-16 uses... i think they make it a little more comforable but not that much better- no selection of buttstocks at all

for urban warfare id take a semi-auto, for outdoors in open environments, id go for a bolt gun for reliabiltiy and also they wont launch brass 10y

 

[muzzleblast]

The only long range shooting I've done has been with a bolt action rifle, but I think the sniper should retain the bolt action for all the reasons eveyone else has said above. The spotter could always carry a semi-auto that shares the same ammo. Use that to support the sniper if things go bad and they need to fight at close range. A DMR type rifle would be cool.

Hatchcock and Burke were able to keep a company pinned down for days and probably bump off 1/3 or more of them, with a bolt action and an M14 I'm pretty sure had no optics. Thats an extreme case but it shows what two people who know how to shoot can do.

 

[Jeff_850]

the spotter generally carries an M-16

DMRs are fine but there not sniper rifles, designated marksmen are by no means snipers
they dont have the same marksmanship training or the same concealment training etc

 

[muzzleblast]

Now that I think about it, I've seen spotters using the M16 or something like your match rifles or SR 25s Jeff. There were a couple international sniper concentrations that were made into TV shows about the Canadian army. USMC, Air force NG, Army and Army NG were all the top scorers I think. We were somewhere around 4th or 5th.

About the DMR, I meant a sniper using a DMR type rifle. Say instead of a big 3-9 variable, a scout type mount with a fixed 3 power scope would work. Be faster to target things up close than irons, allow him to shoot with both eyes open and give him more control over precision shooting at long ranges than a red dot would. And in an M14 platform it would be more effective than a .223 weapon.

Not trying to compare snipers to designated marksmen or call DMRs sniper rifles.

 

[AK]

There were a couple international sniper concentrations that were made into TV shows about the Canadian army. USMC, Air force NG, Army and Army NG were all the top scorers I think. We were somewhere around 4th or 5th.

Canadian Forces, British Army, various American branches; including the USMC, some other nations were in attendance.

These seem to make it onto T.V. but are hard to produce for all the obvious reasons. Last one I saw had the American USMC sniper score 3rd, a CF sniper took first, a Briton second.

So it seems that Bolt-Actions are preferred unless there's a likelyhood of close-in work [By sniping standards, under 300 yards I suppose] in which case everybody would rather a semiauto, or a spotter with a DMR rifle, something like that. I know that the USMC teaches "Rapid Bolt Manipulation" for engaging multiple targets quickly, but it doesn't really matter how fast you cycle the bolt, you've still got six rounds maximum on most sniper rifles. (That's assuming you load one into the chamber atop a full magazine.)

 

[Jeff_850]

yep 20 rounds and a quicker way to reload is much better
besides you can shoot faster with a semi-auto if you have to- as fast as you can pull the trigger

 

[muzzleblast]

Happy to hear the Brits did good in that one...they were pretty low scoring in the one I saw, but they weren't allowed to bring their own ammo and had to rezero and shoot on the fly, they said.

Hopefully in an urban scenario you have people around to help you, whatever sniper rifle you may have in your hands. M16 with M203 would be nice for a spotter there, but just the two of them alone in that section of the city sounds ugly.

 

[mele]

I always preferred my spotter to have a M16A2 (if M4 is not available) with a M203 grenade launcher. The 203 is very flexible and handy to have. HEDP, Flares, Smoke, Buck Shot and others. If the stuff hits the fan, the 203 and M16/M4 become very handy for exfiltration. 203 HE round gets the bad guys heads down, pop smoke, pray to god, run like the wind, errr, I mean E&E

MEL

 

[AK]

Happy to hear the Brits did good in that one...they were pretty low scoring in the one I saw, but they weren't allowed to bring their own ammo and had to rezero and shoot on the fly, they said.

I saw that one. They tend to do much better because everybody's allowed to bring their own ammo and their rifles are kept zero'ed as they should be now. At least the one I saw, might have had the rules relaxed though.

For spotters, in rural areas, I wouldn't mind him to carry a DMR, out in the desert or on mountains, things like that. In my mind, the M-21 is pretty well built for that. Close in, M-4/-203 or -16/-203 combination, as Mele said, definately the best. That said, were a proper assault rifle-UBGL combination available for the rural ops, he'd lug that.

 

[Jeff_850]

id want to give the sniper the m24 sws and both carry m4 w/ the 203
also sidearm- rather have 1911 over m9 but whatever i could get better than nothin

 

[Jeffvn]

Mel

I'm sure your A-gunner was VERY appreciative of your desire that HE hump upwards of 20 pounds of ammo for the M203. Man!!!!! The M203 ammo used to kick serious butt on long days in the bush (we split it between our team but that does not make it any lighter), but it does bring some serious punch to a close in fight - especially the shotgun rounds.

JeffVN

 

[Yimmy]

re

I dont like the way nations these days issue grenade-launchers as assault rifle attachments; I think the weapon was put to far greater use when the soldier only had it, in the form of the M79, and no assault rifle.

It is pointless lugging around an assault rfile and its ammo; all it does is limit the number of grenades they can carry, and encourages them to use the rifle.
You don't want the section grenadier wasting his time with a rifle, other people will be doing that, the grenadier should be laying out grenades.

 

[Jeff_850]

yimmy, i have to disagree
if your the grenadier of today you will have an M-16 with an M203 on it, it will weigh a little more fine but if **** hits the fan and you need a firearm id rather have an M-16 than an M79 and an M9 or M1911 pistol

in addition the grenades anrt always useful there are some jobs a rifle does better at keeping somoene alive... id rahter not have the grenadier be a sitting duck in cqb or any other times you cant use a grenade
40mm buckshot? didnt know they had it but the weapon is only single shot so what happens when theres a 2nd BG???

 

[Yimmy]

re

There are no roles the grenadier can not carry out with his GL.

He has HE shot, HEP shot, Buckshot, Smoke, White phosphourous, Flare etc etc.

In Vietnam there was a special vest for the M79 grenadier, which culd carry I think 24 grenades, it may have been more.

I do not think the grenadier should have a rifle and I do not think they should have a pistol; just the GL.

As a side note, near the end of Vietnam a new M79 was designed, which refitted the old weapons with a 4 shot tube magazine and a pump; this pump action grenade launcher is ideal in my opinion. I'll see if I can find a pic.

Edit:

 

[Jeff_850]

i like that weapon....
all i can say is SWEET!!!!
*drools*