[Nekekami]

I've recently read an issue of the internal magazine of the Swedish Police. In it was an article about the Swedish forensics experts who are down in Kosovo, instructing their police in forensics. One such excercise was the autopsy of a 12-year old boy who was shot while out playing with some friends(Supposedly by the UCK guerilla). But, lodged in the boys chest was a 175 grain Sierra Matchking HPBT, intact enough to be identified as such. A hollow-point bullet found intact in the body means that it had little energy when it hit the body, thus it was fired at long range. The marks of the rifling on the bullet indicated 5 lands and grooves.... 7.62x51 with that kind of bullets is _not_ common down there, especially not coupled with rifles with 5 lands and grooves. And Swedish, German, British, Danish and Norwegian units have different rifling and different bullet weights, same thing for the Spanish, the turks use the SVD Dragunov, so it doesn't match the profile.

You guys do the math

:x

 

[mele]

Nek,

Welcome back.

Now.... I see what you are indicating, BUT, you need to remember that federal GMM 175 is available everywhere in the world, as are sierra MK 175gr for hand loading, as are rifles with 5R rifling, remington M24's, etc are all available, especially if you are a UCK Guirella who does not need to follow laws. While it may not look good, I would have to venture to say that this is pretty circumstantial evidence. That does not mean that I think any particular person/organization did or did not do it, it means that obviously more evidence is needed. Please do not draw conclusions based off of a single bullet, there are too many missing facts and details.

175mk are hollow-tip, they are not made to expand, dumdum, or expanding bullets are forbidden in the laws of land warfare.

I fear a message like this may incite people to anger where it isn't necessary, especially when the details are not available.

MEL

 

[Nekekami]

Mel:

All well and good, except, as I mentioned, 7.61x51 is a quite rare caliber down there. In all the weapons caches that the Swedish forces down there found, only two weapons chambered for 7.62x51 were found, one FN FAL and an old hunting rifle from the 1960's with a completely rust-filled barrel. When I was down there, the only non-Warzaw pact caliber I saw weapons for among the various militias/guerillas was 9x19.

Yes, it can be found illegally, but for the cost of one box of SMK175, they could buy 300-400 7.62x53R 185grain and let those who aren't already used to it practice. Also, SVD's and Mosin-Nagants are available in piles, compared to even hunting rifles in 7.62x51. It's not like they can just go to the nearest shop and buy a rifle. In 2002, the mark-up on the black market for ammunition and weapons was around 300% of the average legal market prices in Belgium.

As for the hollow-tip, one of the side-effects is that it _will_ expand unless the impact has a force that is too low for it to happen. Pure and simple mechanics, really. It's one of the reasons why we don't use our 7.62x51 AP any more. It's got a hollow area between the jacket and the steel core, which would be squashed and expand when it hits someone or something.

 

[mele]

Are not mercenaries prevelent down there? Accounts from several years ago indicated such.

Matchkings will fragment upon impact at close range, but mushrooming is almost non-existent in our tests. The lead core stays together, but the jacket seperates. Thats the main reason why the bullet makes an extremely poor hunting bullet.

MEL

 

[Nekekami]

Mercenaries used to be common in Bosnia, and there were some in Kosovo. They found the general climate in Kosovo not to their liking. Poor people, and the presence of too heavily armed western forces who don't take kindly to mercenaries(Swedish forces for example). The mercenary snipers were all armed with weapons of russian or yugoslavian make.

 

[westpointranger]

I admitt, I don't know much about this subject, but here's a theory.

If the bullet was fired at long range, as Nek suggests, then couldn't it just be a stray bullet that happened to hit an innocent kid? What would be the value of shooting a twelve-year old unless you're a Merc or a terrorist?

 

[APK]

First off I am inclined to agree with Mele. There just isn't enough evidence. I don't know what calibers are common in Kosovo or even that region, however even Westy's point could be fully accurate. There just isn't enough evidence to fully understand what happened. Westy also mentioned the value of the 12 yr. old. What significance does he have but to terrorists etc. Just my POV.

 

[Jeff_850]

gotta agree with APK there isnt enough evidence to prove anything
maybe some mercenary went and bought himself a 5R barrel or even a complete M24 SWS and some Sierra Matchkings or simply Federal gold medal match and shot the 12 year old boy at long range
rare? maybe im not down there to say
impossible to get? no nothing is impossible...

 

[Nekekami]

If it was a stray shot, it was incredibly sloppy shooting. As for shooting a kid, it could just be a sadistic bastard. All armies have had those during all of history.

And, from a guerilla perspective, the UCK had the most to lose from such an action, as anyone who studies guerilla warfare knows. A guerilla can't operate effectively without support from the local population. Targetting the local population erodes that support. Especially if it's a kid.

As for how prevalent various weapons and calibers are, I do know a bit, since I was down there for a while, and got enough briefings as well as talking to people down there.

 

[mele]

Well, lets just hope its not what we all fear... and let us reserve judgement when more facts are present.

MEL

 

[CM2k]

Question; Isn't it against the Rules of War to use HP ammo? As such, why would NATO troops come packing a 7.62x51mm HP round?

 

[Max338]

i have a "theory"
it is possible that some group would try to frame the UCK so that it loses its support.... (crazy and stupid i know but anything is possible)

 

[Jeff_850]

or maybe since they need the support of the local population they shoot a random person and say look what the Americans have done... its possible

and the BTHP is not illegal becase the hollow point isnt meant to expand
rounds that are designed to expand are made illeagl

 

[CM2k]

Jeff, you are think Open Tip, not Hollow Point. Nekekami made comments about how the round hit with too little energy to expand, so.

Either way, any number of groups could be behind this. It could be a local psycho, it could be a sniper. It could have been a rich Kosovo man out for a hunt with his shiny new .308 who does not know he should be sure of his target and beyond. End result is that we will not know, no matter how much we complain, unless more bodies start turning up with .308 rounds in them.

 

[westpointranger]

Think of it this way. Say it was a sedistic American sniper out for a thrill. If he did shoot a kid, there would be a witness, the spotter. And unless the spotter was just as perverted as the sniper, his concience is going to eat him alive until he tells somebody.

Also, the fact that it was a Sierre MK or Federal GMM, that alone rules out the possibility of it being an American sniper, since they can only use M118 or M118LR. The only reasonable conclusion is a terrorist or a stray shot of some sort, so I think the conversation should be dropped.

 

[Jeff_850]

westpointranger,

your fist senario, would the spotter have let that kind of **** happen in the first place???

M118LR uses a Sierra MatchKing 175 gr BTHP

still a Remington M24 SWS or 5R barrel or any other barrel w/ 5 lands and grooves and 175 gr SMK is also not off limits to the rest of the world

i dont think there is enough evidence to point the finger at anyone for this atrocity however hopefully whoever did this will be brought to justice

 

[FilGunner]

:roll: I refuse to belive or EVEN consider the thought of a PROFESSIONAL american sniper shoot a 12 year old kid! One good point to remember though was that mercs were on the loose over there though not really 100% confirmed...same situation in Beirut way back in the 80's..remember? :twisted:

 

[Caban]

Whew... I again got my hands on that old notebook

FilGunner, I agree with you, none of my fellow snipers in Russian army, none of DOSAAF marksmen would do such a thing, and i bet that US snipers arent that childishly sadistic.

I doubt it was stray shot (though i knew the case when .22 round travelled 1.5 km and hit 6-year girl directly into head).

Mel, this is 100% true and real that you cant judge such things from scratch. During 2nd Chechen campaign I personally ran into serious trouble while hunting mercs armed with .338 and .50BMG AWs. Nothing assotiatng with typical image of chechen bandit armed with AKM, uh? However, I definitely wasnt certain who those mercs where unless they are lying down and cold. Another example - I heard that mercenary snipers in Grozny were using .22 Anzhutz rifles. Should i think they were German sportsmen? OK, enough said. Terrorists and guerilla today are often equipped equal or better than army and law enforcement forces (i hope it doesnt apply to you, guys, but for me and my army fellows it is real). And nothing prevents them from using stolen weapons and ammo. In 2000-2002 they were cases when Chechen snipers were using 9*39mm silensed VSS. It is issued only to recon or high-trained infantry, and those used by chechens were not trophies, definitely.

 

[westpointranger]

Whatever the cause, I think the subject should be dropped until further information arises.