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Discussion Starter #1
...into Iraq :wink: . I know a lot of troops smugle weapons overseas for personal protection in wartime. How do they do it and what's the penelty for getting caught?
 

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Some unit CO's dont mind... but most dont want people doing it. What can happen if you are caught... you get the pistol / other weapon taken away and not ever given back... the problem is... they dont really mind if you bring one... but when it comes to getting one back into the states... thats where the issue comes into play. It also depends on the unit... high speed low drag units dont have any issues with personal weapons bring brought over there... your every day grunt or standard pog will have one hell of a time getting one over there... and getting it back when they take it from him / her.

BC
 

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ship it back home in seperate pieces. :)

One problem with POF's is ammo availability. Don't bring that .454 cascull to plink iraqi insurgents with. :lol:
 

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I have had some personal experience with this. It all depends how you mob/deploy. If you are leaving as a unit, traveling as a unit on military supplied aircraft, you won't have any problems. The same goes for returning. I flew to Saudi Arabia via the military, and pretty much bypassed customs. I returned home Via comercial airlines as a civilian. I went through customes like everyone else. Also, ballistic is right. If your going to bring something, match the caliber with what the gvmnt uses. 9 and 45.

My opinion, by a glock of your choice. They're reliable as all ever, won't rust, almost mantainance free, and CHEAP... If you lose it or it gets taken, Oh well, 450$ in whole. You'll make that up in hazardous duty pay, and have the piece of mind of good backup.
 

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I have had some personal experience with this. It all depends how you mob/deploy. If you are leaving as a unit, traveling as a unit on military supplied aircraft, you won't have any problems. The same goes for returning. I flew to Saudi Arabia via the military, and pretty much bypassed customs. I returned home Via comercial airlines as a civilian. I went through customes like everyone else. Also, ballistic is right. If your going to bring something, match the caliber with what the gvmnt uses. 9 and 45.

My opinion, by a glock of your choice. They're reliable as all ever, won't rust, almost mantainance free, and CHEAP... If you lose it or it gets taken, Oh well, 450$ in whole. You'll make that up in hazardous duty pay, and have the piece of mind of good backup.
 

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Every package is checked for material not allowed to be shiped... shipping parts of weapons is deffinitly not allowed. Stuffing somthing into your sea-bag is the best bet... if your unit wont allow you to legally bring your own sidearm.

BC
 

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re

Er, why bother to bring your own pistol anyway?
They are hardly worthwhile where it comes to what value they have firepower wise...
 

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Fact is... if your MOS / spot in a unit requires a pistol... you will be issued one.

BC
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: re

Yimmy said:
Er, why bother to bring your own pistol anyway?
They are hardly worthwhile where it comes to what value they have firepower wise...
In terms of firepower, no. In terms of a PDW, they're a lot nicer than an M16A2.
 

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Re: re

Yimmy said:
Er, why bother to bring your own pistol anyway?
They are hardly worthwhile where it comes to what value they have firepower wise...
Holy cow Yimmy, I know you like the stir the pot, but man! :shock:

When the fit hits the shan, your sidearm might be the only thing standing between goin' home to Mamma or playing a game of "Let's Meet Jesus." A lot of men owe their lives to their 1911s and I know many vets who depended on their .45 as much as they did their M1/M14/M16.

Especially when spiders attack! But that's a story for later. :lol:
 

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hehehe, well yes I do like to stir the pot, but in this case that is my genuine opinion of pistols.

For police officers and similar roles they are fine, but in a combat situation they are a joke. You would be far better off carrying a couple extra magazines for your assault rifle. I know people seem to have the impression that an M16A2 is long and bulky, but it really isn't, it is a carbine already.
When the adrenaline is flowing with bullets flying around, with you hugging cover, you will not hit anything past 5m's with a pistol - and if the enemy is that close you can reach him with a bayonet.
 

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And if you have time to affix your bayonet, then you're so far away you have time to switch out magazines and shoot his ass.

And if you go into combat with that damn shiney thing hanging off the end of your weapon upsetting it's balance and making it more vulnerable to cross-gusts of wind shafting the muzzle off-target, then you need to spend a few hours on the combat infantryman's "Hogan Alley" on a windy day.

And if you're close enough for a bayonet, you're close enough to drop the weapon on it's tac-sling (if you've got one), take the fighting blade from whereever you've got it, and slice and dice him. Or your bayonet. Whatnot.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
For police officers and similar roles they are fine, but in a combat situation they are a joke. You would be far better off carrying a couple extra magazines for your assault rifle. I know people seem to have the impression that an M16A2 is long and bulky, but it really isn't, it is a carbine already.
When the adrenaline is flowing with bullets flying around, with you hugging cover, you will not hit anything past 5m's with a pistol - and if the enemy is that close you can reach him with a bayonet.
Only 5m's huh? In that case, I make SAS look like a bunch of wimps. Come on now. :wink:

And what exactly makes the M16A2 a carbine?
 

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The M-16A2 is an "Assault Rifle"... meaning it is capable of either burst or automatic fire... and has a relativly small caliber. The M-4 and its variants are Carbines... meaning they have short barrels and smaller sized stocks.

BC
 

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AK said:
And if you go into combat with that damn shiney thing hanging off the end of your weapon upsetting it's balance and making it more vulnerable to cross-gusts of wind shafting the muzzle off-target, then you need to spend a few hours on the combat infantryman's "Hogan Alley" on a windy day.
LOL!
And it really isn't often that I actually laugh out loud at the computer screen.

I would never dream of going into combat with my rifle -without- the bayonet fixed. When you are assaulting the enemy, or being assaulted for that matter, you never know when your weapon may run out of ammunition or jam at a rather unfortunate time, the bayonet is by no means obsolete.

To answer your points, firstly if your army has purchased shiny bayonets I feel sorry for you, as most today are either a dull greay or black. Secondly, a bayonet does not upset the balance of the rifle, in fact it improves it, as the weapon is balanced with a full magazine with the bayonet fitted (I can only speak for the SA-80). Thirdly, the idea of a modern bayonet making any noteable difference to the amount the wind effects your aim is laughable, and hardly a good reason to not fit it!

Now, I honestly do mean no offense by this, but this line of thought may be what in part seperates the Commonwealth militaries from the American military. The British army has never shunned from the opportunity to use bayonets, such attacks having been made in the Falklands, and recent Gulf War (and of course many times prior to these recent events). The way a firefight is won is not only by pouring out the most firepower, but by advancing relentlessly, closing and destroying the enemy - on an empty magazine on the final bound an American soldier may be trained to stand still, drop his rifle and take aim with a pistol, but we are trained to keep the momentum and use that pointy thing on the end of the barrel. That said, I do fully understand that a small mob of terrorists with RPG's is a different threat to a well trained foreign army, who also have their bayonets fixed, such as the Argentinians.

Westpointranger, compare an M16 to a G3 or SLR...
If you can hold your hand steady enough to shoot someone with a pistol, them running around shooting at you, at any useful distance, well... good for you! :D

This post may come across a little tetchy, but I really do think it unbelievable that people should consider a pistol worthwhile on a battlefield. Their one and only use is for officers to shoot their own men in the back, whom refuse to "go over the top", oh, and for officers dueling, but that was made illegal a long time ago unfortunately.
 

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Well, given than a battle rifle such as an SLR is four and a half kg's empty, a 1.1m's long, shooting a .30 cal round - while the skinny M16 weighs under three kg's empty, being a meter ruler shooting .22 rounds... I think that counts as a carbine. I think most people who dropped M14's for it would agree also.

As by Cambridge:
Carbine = a short light rifle (= gun), originally used by soldiers on horses.
 

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Interesting fault with my earlier post: I had been thinking 1500-1955; where all issued bayonets were either of the "spike" or "sword" type and of substantial length. Mind was stuck in the past.

Secondly, a bayonet does not upset the balance of the rifle, in fact it improves it, as the weapon is balanced with a full magazine with the bayonet fitted (I can only speak for the SA-80).
You speak only for bullpup-design assault rifles. Any "classic" design, such as the Diemaco C-7, is upset by the attachment of a bayonet, unless it is very light and has a small-cross section. (Re: wind)

How does combat drill differ in the British army, issued a bullpup rifle, than in those issued the more traditional weapon design? I imagine substantially, since hitting someone across the face with your magazine and already forcing a reportedly unreliable weapon to misfeed (Butt-stroking) - would this explain some of the British reliance on the bayonet?

At close quarters, I'd fear the guy with the handgun more than the man with the bayonet. One I know how to counter. The other, I have to worry about DuPont knowing how to counter.
 

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Re: re

Yimmy said:
"...but in a combat situation [pistols] are a joke. You would be far better off carrying a couple extra magazines for your assault rifle...When the adrenaline is flowing with bullets flying around, with you hugging cover, you will not hit anything past 5m's with a pistol - and if the enemy is that close you can reach him with a bayonet."
*takes deep breath*

First of all, (and most basic, as history represents *fact* that no opinion could ever usurp) as I pointed out earlier, you can't tell the men whose rear-ends have been saved by their sidearm that they're a joke--Even Englishmen.

Secondly, the idea that by simply carrying a couple extra mags for your rifle constitutes a good substitute for an entirely seperate weapons system is ludicrous. If my primary firearm fails I:

1) Do not want to entirely depend on my buddies/backup to defend me, even though I may trust my life to them. Plus, if my gun is out of the fight, one of the guys covering my now defenseless butt might end up in a body bag. Ending up in a box 6 foot under myself because my rifle jammed/ran out of ammo/busted and I had no secondary firearm is not an appealing thought either.

2) Do not want to have to close with the enemy to within hand-to-hand distance to kill him--which is *exactly* what bayonet distance is. Your 5 meters that you quote, while spitting distance, is not bayonet distance. It's still handgun distance. Handgun beats bayonet at 5 meters. Plus, Murphy's Law states you're the only one with a weapon problem--your enemy still has a functioning gun and plenty of ammo. You stated yourself that the assault rifle is the superior weapon, thus his gun beats your bayonet at *any* distance.

So I ask you, do you want to face off with a Jihadist 30 meters away, him armed with the ever-reliable AK-47 and a full magazine, and you, fresh outta ammo with your bayonet fixed? Sir, no gun or no ammo = SOL + DOA. Look back through the posts to where BC listed what a typical combat Marine loads out with. There's a reason they carry lots of ammo and at least one reserve weapon system and it's not just because Marines are gung-ho: It's because they're the ultimate "smart weapon" with centuries of experience in the worst ground fighting in history...Experience which is unmatched by any other fighting force in the world (whew, that was hard for a "Go Army" guy to say ;-)

I'd rather die with a hot barrel than a cold knife any day--But I'd rather not die at all, which is why I'll carry a backup, thanks.

But, if at the end of the day you're still in doubt, I have a challenge for you if you ever make it to the United States (which I hope you do; it's a good place to live): You and I can get together and go into the woods. We'll arm ourselves with paintball, airsoft or simunitions weaponry. Along with rifles, I'll carry a handgun and you can carry a real, honest-to-goodness bayonet. Hell, carry two or three if you want, I don't care. And when we run out of ammo, we'll switch to our secondary system.

Care to wager who wins the game? Assuming that you play fair and don't stab me because you're P-O'ed because I just splattered your face mask with paint, the odds are I will.

Now, before I close this up, I want to say that I don't at all discount the effectiveness of a bayonet or knife for CQB. Knives are visciously lethal weapons that are not to be trifled with. As Mel's description for this section of the forum says, when it's come down to the handgun, things have gone South in a big way...But when it comes down to bayonet time, you're really living in a world of you know what, and probably not for long.
 

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Excellent post, Recoil! Very well stated.
 
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