[mlammers]

Hey guys, just thought I would let you know it looks like(weather depending) I will be out qualifying next Tuesday. I have two windshields and a ton of test ammo to shoot. I will try to document the whole day if possible with pics. MEL, you seem to be the review guru, I was planning to test all the ammo at 100 no barier for accuracy, and then repeat at 50 and 100 if possible through the glass. I will try to measure deflection, and to get pics of the spalling/bullet breakup damage after the glass. Do you have any other suggestions, and would you like a copy of the info? The shooting will be done by me with the 700, and also by a another Sniper using a SIG/Blaser 93 rifle. I wish we could test further out, but 100 is the max on the range available.

Without looking I will give a list of the ammo to be tested(might miss one or two though)

FED GM308 168BTHP
FED GM308 175BTHP
FED TAC 308 165 Bonded
REM 308 168 Match
REM 308 NBT 165
REM 308 PREM COR LOCT ULTRA
REM 308 SWIFT SCIRACO?
PMC 168 Match
Black Hills 168 Match
Black Hills 175 Match
American Ammo/IMI 175 Match
HSM 168Match
HSM 165 SP?
Ultra Max 168 BTHP(REMAN and New)
Ultra Max 165 BTSP(Reman and New)
Horanady TAP 110

This should give me a good sample of what is out there. I am looking for guidance here as well so give me any pointers guys on what info you might like to see. If I can get it I will try. Thanks in advance for the advice.

ML 313

If know the enemy and yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles -SunTzu

Practice does not make Perfect, PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT-OSP Drill Instructor

 

[Jeffvn]

where you going to test that ammo - Delaware Reservoir? Other than Circleville, I didn't know there was a range anywhere near there.

JeffVN

 

[mlammers]

I do usually use the Delaware range for most of my practice(should see some of the looks :shock: when I put up duty targets of faces and hostage taker shots, although I prefer to do this only when I know the guys present). I wil be doing this testing on CPD range, as they are helping me and that is also where I shoot for qualification. Plus it is only five minutes from HQ so I can go on duty real easy.

ML 313

If you know the enemy and yourself,you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles-SunTzu

Practice does not make perfect, PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT-OSP Drill Instructor

 

[mele]

I would be extremely interested in the results. I have the FBI test results from similar tests that they did, and it is very informative.

An important thing to take into account is the distance the barrier is in front of the target. The effect of bullet impact and the destruction of the bullet changes dramatically from 3ft to 10ft. If you can do multiple tests, with the barrier at various different distances, it would be useful information.

Also, I do not see M118 or M118LR listed on your ammo list. I can provide both types of loads if you do not have them. (though only limited amounts) Of course, M118LR I would expect to perform identical to Fed Match 175gr, but M118 is a whole different beast (and usually does quite well through glass)

MEL

 

[muzzleblast]

I'm starting to feel eager to see it too, Mlammers. Its gonna be a really interesting thing to compare and I'm looking foreward to seeing how the hunting rounds do, since they are hyped as "super penetrators" and the like.

Mel's point about distance from obstacle to the target is well said...Move things back a little and you might start seeing keyholes from bullets hitting sideways. I've never done any real tests but I've found out as he said, things can change dramatically in 20 or 30 feet! What I found so far is that if there is an obstacle in the way, angles are bad. Gotta hit it straight on, but I'm sure thats common knowledge.

Good luck with the tests! Should be fun.

 

[mlammers]

Mel, I have to look in the ammo can, I might have one box of M118 1967 Special ball left, Thanks for reminding me to include it. Also for reminding me how low(hope not out) of it I am. Thanks for the tip on the distance from barrier to target, I will set one up at about 3 feet, and try to get one at 10. Muzzleblast, we are looking at the SP and bonded to see how they do, in penetration as they are supposed to retain weight pretty well, and should do well on glass. I also like the fact that since they mushroom the energy transfer to target should be high, which may limit pass through/ overpenetration problems on soft targets. The 110 Tap is supposed to be outstanding for that, have seen one incident report where at very short range(about 30yds if I remember right) where it did not exit the head.

As an side note, on a scenario shoot I was using 143FMJ, while my partner was using GM308, I had one through and through hole on a windshield, target, two van seats, and a back door panel. The GM308 started to fragment badly before hitting the target in the front pasenger seat. We both 278 yards distant about 10yds apart on slight down angle. That experience has spurred my interest in this kind of testing. I was shooting the M14, my partner was using a Wetherby 308. Let me know what format you want the results in MEL. I can post them here, or get them to you for review first just let me know.

ML313

Know the enemy and yourself, and you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles-SunTzu

Practice does not make perfect, PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT-OSP Drill Instructor

 

[mlammers]

Forgot to ask, Mel What would I owe you for a box or two of the M118 if I am out?

 

[mele]

The federal 165 tactical load is a direct result of the FBI testing of this same nature. The FBI found the 165gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw to perform the best through glass. Now, this was testing performed 7-8 years ago, perhaps even longer, and there a many new bullets out since then. So it will be interesting to see if the TBBC still reigns supreme.

Yeah, the match king bullets do not do well going through glass, strips the jacket right off of them. FMJ will generally always do better, and have poor expansion to go with it :wink:

Digital format for the data would be fantastic. I'll review and can format and post on the site... It'll be nice to compare against the FBI data. They shot through several different types of glass. Of course, their resources tend to be a bit better than the average joe, or "joe agency".

MEL

 

[mlammers]

Amen on the budget, I cant thank the Ammo Companies enough for sending us the ammo. The glass is being removed from a cruiser that has a pitted windshield, and the glass Co is giving me one other damaged one.
I just picked the auto glass, as I figured being laminated it would be pretty tough and take a few rounds before breaking up.

ML313

Know the enemy and yourself, and you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles-SunTzu

Practice does not make perfect, PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT-OSP Drill Instructor

 

[mele]

Boy, if you think auto glass is tough (which it is!!) you should see cockpit glass from airliners! WOW!

Another possible test is testing the point of impact shift when glass is angled (45 degrees for instance).

MEL

 

[mlammers]

I might have to try that angle shooting, as well as elevated, they have a tower.

 

[mlammers]

JeffVn, You must be a buckeye if you know about Delaware and Cirlceville? Hope your time here was ok. Sorry forgot to ask earlier

 

[cody221]

i shot the window in an old boat with my .22lr and match shells at 75 yards, it went straight through and produced a 9" diamaterhole which has been expanding slowly to the complete window

 

[mlammers]

Sounds Like fun, and I admit, I am looking forward to this as much as fun(all shooting is fun, except for the real shot for work), as I am for anything. This testing is going to be the way I choose my new ammo for work though, so It will done as right as I can do it. Hope you guys like the info.

ML313

Know your enemy and yourself, and you need not fear the outcome of 100 battles-SunTzu

Practice does not make perfect, PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT-OSP Drill Instructor

 

[AK]

Know your enemy and yourself, and you need not fear the outcome of 100 battles-SunTzu

Speaking of Master Sun Tzu:
"At range, use your crossbow. In close quarters, your hand weapons. Crossbow and hand weapons are of mutual aid."

Du Mu comments on Master Sun. (Quoted example, from mlammers)
"What he means by this is to understand how the terrain and your forces will influence the outcome of the battle."

The quote you have, Mlammers, is from his (Master Sun's) chapter on Terrain, specifically referring to the subsection on "Terrain from which there is no way out."

Unfortunately the quote is ambiguous without the supporting materials and I have not yet finished my essay on his works. When it is done, I will post it here for further reference.

I'm also a "little" drunk now, trying to forget the beatings inflicted. Talk coherently later.

 

[mlammers]

Hey AK I am having a few bourbon and Cokes myself tonight, the Quote Was drilled into us in a Course during my 4mo stay at OSP by a DI who was former LRP team leader in Nam. He used it in a Survial class he teaches called FAST, and he also taught a class called the 6 stages of dying that was very motivating. He is without a doubt the best instructor I have ever had, he knows people and he knows his stuff too. As far as I know he did 3 tours, and according to him has been to five of six stages of dying, and I must say I believe him. He is/was(retired now) an OSP Sniper and SRT team leader.

ML313

Know your enemy and yourself, and you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles-SunTzu

Practice does not make Perfect, PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT-OSP Drill Instructor

 

[muzzleblast]

AK, Mlammers, its 5 o'clock somewhere and the only dangerous amount is none....

Kiddin, what I really wanted to say was that maybe a box of lighter hunting ammo could be in the mix? such as ballistic silvertip or plain old nosler ballistic tip? The only reason I bring it up is because the bonded rounds really are serious penetrators. I think they would get through whatever medium you want to get through, but a "soft" target doesn't retard them enough to be safe. Usually zip through a deer without expanding too much unless the bullet strikes a shoulder. My experiences are with Win Fail Safe and Accubond...I think the Accubond might be better for LE because the polymer tip initiates a more controlled expansion.

Accubond went through 5 feet of moose before it stopped lol.

 

[mlammers]

Feeling the old Ezra(90 Proof half bottle here), know what you mean on the bonded. The SP from ultramax is standard speer soft point hunting bullet(god dont let me drive right now, sorry for the typing right now). It has a BC of over 5 so should be good at long range even though we usually are short range shooters. I may also pick up some 150CL REM Hunting Ammo just for kicks. THe 270 BBl on this action would do .75MOA with 130CL REM Hunting AMMO. Urban LE work is tough to balance Barrier penetration without over penetration on soft targets.

 

[muzzleblast]

Suprisingly enough I haven't made any posts yet while I was in your shape...Thats for the best! But I found out recently that Kentucky bourbon is not for sissy boys! If there are any Kentuckians here, you guys are hardcore.

Talk about walking a tightrope. Something made to penetrate, but not to overpenetrate...very tricky! I would think some of the rounds like the CL and others without exposed lead would be right up the alley of what you're lookin for. Do you have any gelatin to use in your tests? Maybe I could donate you a few boxes of Jello lol...would be nice to see what kinda shape these rounds are ending up in after their journey through the glass.

 

[AK]

Hey AK I am having a few bourbon and Cokes myself tonight, the Quote Was drilled into us in a Course during my 4mo stay at OSP by a DI who was former LRP team leader in Nam. He used it in a Survial class he teaches called FAST, and he also taught a class called the 6 stages of dying that was very motivating. He is without a doubt the best instructor I have ever had, he knows people and he knows his stuff too. As far as I know he did 3 tours, and according to him has been to five of six stages of dying, and I must say I believe him. He is/was(retired now) an OSP Sniper and SRT team leader.

Two things, most relevant first.
1) There are many variations of Master Sun's works. My standard is the compiled work translated by Thomas Cleary, supplemented by much else. Your DI during the stay at OSP sounds like one hardcore motherfucker - 'Nam-era LRRPs don't break.
2) I am quasi-sober. I am also underage, so the whole hangover thing will not go well in school this morning... in five hours. Go find me "AK-Anon."