[APK]

Ok, instead of completely takin the M16 thread off topic I want to start a new one. Actually 2 this one on the XM8, and one on fixing the Stoner design.

I personally dont want to see the M16 design go, just get fixed. But it seems most likely that instead it will be replaced, and probably by the XM8. What are the thoughts on this and why is it better or worse than the M16?

 

[Bead Drawer]

I'm against replacing the M16 with the XM8, and voted no.

As has been said before, too much has been invested in the AR type rifle to drop it. As for specific complaints/inferiorities with the XM8, here are my thoughts:

1) The barrel is too short (assuming we stay with the 5.56)
2) No provision for mounting accessories.
3) The gee-whiz plastic housing

I could probably think of a few more, but that's what comes to mind immediately.

On the plus side, I've read about the sight on the XM8, and I think that it is a very good idea.

Just my .02

 

[BuckSlayer]

Hey why not? They're already using those in every arcade I've been to. Cept all those have little chains on em.

BuckSlayer

 

[Jeff_850]

the barrel is too short, basically like shooting point blank with it is like shooting 300m with the M-16
the M4 would make a better system, im for improving the M4 and using them instead

 

[Poundcake]

personally, i like the operating system, flash hider, optic system, clear mags and modularity, but it still just skirts the main issue, I don't care about all this new bs unless it KILLS BETTER. we need to forget the 5.56.. period.

 

[Jeff_850]

ahh if it was 6.8mm and didnt look like a toy it might actually be 'better' than the M-16

 

[APK]

Jeff_850:

the barrel is too short, basically like shooting point blank with it is like shooting 300m with the M-16
the M4 would make a better system, im for improving the M4 and using them instead

Jeff- as far as I know, it will be available in several versions, that picture is just the first i found.

I agree the XM8 in 6.8 might be nice, however, can u say $. I think the M16 in 6.8 is a much more cost effective platform w/ much more potential since the is so much invested in this desgin. But who knows, maybe the mods I have suggested would be more than an XM8. I just don't know.

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

I voted NO... why? Well there are plenty of reasons.

1: No iron sights. What happens when the batteries go out or the optics break or otherwise become un-useable. Your screwed...
2: The barrel is to thin on the standard rifle / carbine models... it has more muzzle flip than an AK-47 when fired on fully auto. So you wont be able to hit anything with it when on auto compared to the M-4 style carbine.
3: There is not a bayonet lug on any of the versions.
4: There are not any versions with any type of 1913 rail system... we can not use any of our existing accesories or grenade / flare launchers.
5: From what i hear... it is a real pain to clean. The accesability of the parts is terrible. And the stock configuration being a main stock... as apposed to a furniture configuration... means the stock must be very strong to protect the rifles internal parts. A plastic stock is not strong enough... compared to the relativly thick aluminum protection of the AR-15 style rifle.
6: The magazines are not interchangable with any NATO magazines... and the magazines do not work with the SAW's magazine well.
7: There have not been any REAL independant test's of the rifle or any of its variants... the machinegun version of the XM-8 does not work very well with the current standard M27 link's either.

All the M-16 / M-4 style rifles need to be fixed is the new gas system and a better standard issue ammo... no caliber change is needed. A magazine of 30 rounds... with three M-193 rounds then two M-855 rounds ratio would work great for all targets. M-193 being for soft targets... fragmenting apon impact and causing massive tissue damage. M-855 being for peircing steel and armor... helmets... kevlar... car doors... ect.

BC

 

[Yimmy]

re

Now, I don't think many of you will appreciate this opinion now, but I really can see 20 years from now the M8 (or AR8 or whatever the civillian friendly version will be called), being a must have, with everybody buying them in America - with the AR15's becoming unfashionable and only used by the same graphic who use the M14 now.

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

The M-1A / M-14 sales in the US have done nothing but grow and grow... and with Springfield Armory comming out with numerous new options and versions of it each year it doesnt look like the trend will stop any time soon. The local gun store stocks up on 5 or so M-1A's ever week and a half... and sells them within the next week and a half by the time they get the new ones in. Same thing with the Ruger Mini-14's and Mini-30's. The AR-15 is not able to be sold here in California... but there is a California legal version with a non detachable magazine which the local gun stores are selling alot of them. According to the local gun store owners i have spoken to... the hottest selling M-14 is the "Loaded" version... its a basic M-14 with a match grade barrel and sights... and with a little bit of action work done to it.

BC

 

[hypno]

i just got this magazine--Special weapons for military and LE......it has a whole 8 page article of how the m-16 series can be improved and if the XM8 wil replace it. my opinion is to switch the m-16 series to the new 6.8 and just improve the guns....and i agree the xm8 doesn't have the 1913 rail for accessories so all of the sights-lasers-infared would be totally useless if we adopt the gun.

~dom~

 

[AK]

Tupperware firearms are useless when you want to beat someone about the head, and brutally murder them so that they don't kill you, or your comrades.

Weee. I just broke my stock across your head. Excuse me, while I suffer as you shoot me in the gut or smash my face into a bowl with the stock of your AK-47 - which coincidentally, is made of much sterner stuff, wood, maybe fiberglass, if it's an AK-74.

God forbid you drop it. Then you've got a barrel, a magazine, and then the RSM or the CSM might give you a nail.

Although they do have some pretty hard, durable plastics nowadays.

 

[muzzleblast]

Some of the new composite materials are stronger than wood, right? Like, synthetic stocks are more durable now?

I know the M16 has been applied to many a head and I haven't heard about any breakin yet

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

I have bent a buffer tube on the bayonet range before. It bent the buffer tube right after the threads and broke part of the stock... just a little chip though nothing big. Butt stroking a tree trunk when the adrenaline is pumping will tend to do that.

BC

 

[Jeff_850]

if you hit the M-16's stock hard enough you can knock chunks off
they issue us dummy M-16s but one time they forgot, i took a nice lil gash out of my M-16's stock... if i had it my way id take my frusteration out for its damned extractor claw and break the damn weapon and theyd give me a new one that might not be as bad

 

[shikaku]

accessories so all of the sights-lasers-infared would be totally useless if we adopt the gun.

to my impression there is surely a way to merely modify the electric sight

and as for batteries running out, thats very unlikely, even if it consumes massive power, they have some batteries, not civilian available, but to alot of military and intel guys that are pretty small compared to there power and productivity, what it is, is that they, in very rudementary terms, recharge themselves slightly, and they use a much more efficient power source

 

[Ballistic_Coefficiency]

accessories so all of the sights-lasers-infared would be totally useless if we adopt the gun.

to my impression there is surely a way to merely modify the electric sight

and as for batteries running out, thats very unlikely, even if it consumes massive power, they have some batteries, not civilian available, but to alot of military and intel guys that are pretty small compared to there power and productivity, what it is, is that they, in very rudementary terms, recharge themselves slightly, and they use a much more efficient power source

ALL accesories for the M-16 / M-4 are fixed to the weapon via the M-1913 rail system... the AN/PEQ-2A Infra Red Laser Target Designator... M870 shotgun MCS... all the surefight lights and lasers... and forward pistol grips... WILL NOT fit on anything except the M-1913 rail system which the XM8 does not have.

As far as batteries lasting long... every Military man knows that anything that mounts on a rifle that needs batteries is not going to last long. Most last around 5 to 20 hours total time (depending on power setting and what optics) before needing to be either recharged fully or replace the batteries. I have yet to see batteries recharge themselves...

I have quite a few true stories about men dying as a result of being to reliant on technology and having the technology fail on them...

BC

 

[muzzleblast]

Sinking feeling says the technology will quit just when you need it the most

 

[AK]

No, Murphy's Law says the technology will fail when you need it. Not "Sinking Feeling." :wink:

 

[westpointranger]

BC,

The XM8 does have a bayo lug. It's mounted to the back of the barrel and the bottom of the handguard it cut away which i think it totally pointless. IMO, the bayo lug is only good as another place to mount a flashlight, but I've been wrong before :wink: . I believe it also has points to mount rails on the handguards. At any rate, it probably won't take KAC long to come up with an insanely expensive RIS for it. The sight also has a built-in IR pointer. I think it may also have an internal visible laser, but don't quote me on that. It has back-up iron sights, but they're non-adjustable. So if you have to take a shot that's much farther away than arms-length, you can pretty much hang it up .

As for the barrel, if they would just give it pregressive polygonal rifling like the Arms-Tech Compac-16 (which is totally awesome :twisted: ), that would be the solution. Now, if they did that and made it 6.8 SC with bonded bullets, that would be one heck of a tail-kicker!

But yeah. The M16 can do anything the XM8 (or any other rifle, for that matter) can do if it's properly upgraded. Plus it can do it at a fraction of the cost.

One last thing, the XM8 DMAR (they combined the DMR and the Automatic Rifle into one weapon) was not designed to replace the M249-series. Its just meant to fill the place of the Mk12 Mod0/1